help with meaning

<< "I'm not going nowhwere" is a native construction. Would you advise ESL student to use it? >>

No, but 1) that isn't what you said (as far as we could tell, you were saying that "rename to" was an entirely non-native construction), and 2) that's a different degree of error. "I'm not going nowhere" will give an English (as a first language) teacher a heart attack; by contrast, "rename to" might even go unnoticed.

<< Keffy, is this nonnative use of English?

"She is knowing the answer."

"He does be working every day."

"Did you eat yet?" >>

I would generally consider the first to be a non-native error. (I think you've used this example sentence before, but I forget the context of that discussion.)

The second one is neither grammatical nor native as far as I know. It *sounds* like African-American Vernacular English (which has a separate grammar of its own), but I don't think it is (I think it would more likely be "he do be" than "he does be"). Although the basic meaning of the sentence is comprehensible, I'm not sure of the nuance that "does be" is trying to communicate. My best guess is that it should be "He does work every day," or "He is indeed working every day."

The third seems completely normal to me, certainly not non-native. (This example also seems familiar, now that I think about it.) It took me a second to even figure out what the sentence was "supposed" to be... I presume you think it should be "Have you eaten yet?", but I don't think the use of the perfect is required, at least in American English. In casual speech, I might even shorten it to "Y'eat yet?" I've never heard anybody declare "Did you eat yet?" to be an error, so while somebody somewhere might have made a rule against it, it doesn't seem to be widely known, at least here.

- Kef

<I would generally consider the first to be a non-native error. (I think you've used this example sentence before, but I forget the context of that discussion.) >

It's and example of Standard Indian English. Is that nonnative in your book?


The second one spoken by Standard Irish English speakers. Are they native speakers in your book?

<In casual speech, I might even shorten it to "Y'eat yet?" I've never heard anybody declare "Did you eat yet?" to be an error, so while somebody somewhere might have made a rule against it, it doesn't seem to be widely known, at least here. >

I didn't ask if it was an error, I asked if it was nonnative.

It's an example of Standard American English (SAE). Is SAE nonnative, IYO?

typo:

*It's and example of
*The second one spoken

Correction:

It's an example of
The second is one spoken

BTW, AEers, how would one know what was meant here?

"He wanted to buy a new suit, but he didn't think it fit."

;-)

<< The second one spoken by Standard Irish English speakers. Are they native speakers in your book? >>

Hmm. Well, when I think of English, I have to admit that Hiberno-English usually isn't the sort of thing that comes to mind. But, obviously, most speakers of Hiberno-English are native English speakers in a literal sense, and they would probably (justifably) take offense at the notion that they're not. Still, I think it should be understandable that features that are obscure to many speakers might be assumed to be non-native.

Hiberno-English is not one of the primary dialects of English -- you'll rarely hear it unless you move to Ireland or watch a TV show like Father Ted -- so it isn't the sort of English that a learner will normally want to emulate unless they want to live in Ireland. Hiberno-English is obviously a form of English, but it isn't necessarily a form of what most people mean when they say English (no slight towards it intended).

The same point applies to Indian English, except that many speakers of Indian English aren't even native speakers. There are many, many languages spoken in India, and English serves as a lingua franca. But there are still native Indian English speakers, of course.

There's also the maxim that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. When you remove the politics of it all, there is a vague sense in which speakers of Hiberno-English are speaking a different language than British English, and even that you and I are speaking different (but mutually intelligible) languages right now. The whole idea that something is or isn't English, or even a particular form of English, is sort of artificial to begin with.

I think we'd do well to start burying this discussion, since whether a particular usage is "native" or not isn't necessarily relevant to an ESL speaker (as Pos more or less pointed out a few posts ago). I'm not saying you have to leave it at this and let me have the last word, but I'm not sure this discussion really serves any purpose anymore (or, really, if it ever did).

<< I didn't ask if it was an error, I asked if it was nonnative. >>

My intended meaning of "error" included non-native usages as well as native but stigmatized usages. Sorry for not making it clear.

- Kef

<Hiberno-English is not one of the primary dialects of English -- you'll rarely hear it unless you move to Ireland or watch a TV show like Father Ted -- so it isn't the sort of English that a learner will normally want to emulate unless they want to live in Ireland. >

And "Microsoft/Linux English" may not be the sort of English a learner needs - unless he's decided to be a computer programmer.

Last word.