help with meaning

beneficii   Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:49 am GMT
furrykef,

I tend to agree. Putting the 'to' between the double-quoted phrases "freedom fries" "and French fries" I think helped keep them separated and prevented them from meshing on the page. Additionally, it just seems like more precise speech to put the 'to' in there, even if not prescriptively correct. That way you can see precisely that it's going from the original name to the new name.
Pos   Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:51 am GMT
<Using "to" is certainly not an error only made by non-natives.>

It's an error nonetheless. Do you think those examples are native ones?
Dolly   Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:58 am GMT
"He was renamed Minister of the Interior"

Kef, Bene, would you prefer the sceond example to the first?

"He was renamed Minister of the Interior"
"He was renamed to Minister of the Interior"
Pos   Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:00 am GMT
<I can imagine that maybe prescriptivists might dislike "rename X to Y", but it is far from a "non-native error". >

"Far from"? Really? Can you find me thousands of examples where it is used by native speakers?
Pos   Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:58 am GMT
<<That way you can see precisely that it's going from the original name to the new name. >>

I name this ship Titanic = I give the name Titanic to this ship
I rename this ship Mercury = I give the new name Mercury to this ship.

So, do you two want us to use "to" with name also?

See how the "to" is contained on these:

reanimate = bring to life
reawaken = cause to become awake or conscious once again
rebirth = the coming to life once more

And so on...

If you wish to create redundancy, go ahead.
furrykef   Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:14 am GMT
<< Kef, Bene, would you prefer the sceond example to the first?

"He was renamed Minister of the Interior"
"He was renamed to Minister of the Interior" >>

In that case I would definitely prefer the first one. The "to" is superfluous because it is no longer serves the function of separating the two objects of the verb.


<< "Far from"? Really? Can you find me thousands of examples where it is used by native speakers? >>

How about this?

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:microsoft.com+%22rename+*+to%22&hl=en&safe=off&start=10&sa=N

Not all of the hits use the construction in question, but many of them do. It's clear that Microsoft finds it acceptable. I chose Microsoft because it was the first large computing site that came to mind, and because, while Microsoft may not write the most brilliant prose, they're not known for making serious mistakes in their English.

- Kef
Pos   Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:32 am GMT
<How about this?

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:microsoft.com+%22rename+*+to%22&hl=en&safe=off&start=10&sa=N

Not all of the hits use the construction in question, but many of them do. It's clear that Microsoft finds it acceptable. I chose Microsoft because it was the first large computing site that came to mind, and because, while Microsoft may not write the most brilliant prose, they're not known for making serious mistakes in their English. >

How about it? I can't find any examples of rename + preposition "to". Where are they?
M56   Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:42 am GMT
Please realise that a computer needs extra help when reading code, etc. We humans should not need the same help. If we did, we'd get rid of all our idiomatic expressions, non-literal ways of speaking about things, synonyms and so on.
Guest   Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:41 am GMT
Hey, guys, can we also use "replace" with the preposition "to"?
Guest   Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:27 pm GMT
Maybe Kef would say "replace this dish to the kitchen".
beneficii   Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:15 pm GMT
Dolly,

>>"He was renamed Minister of the Interior"

Kef, Bene, would you prefer the sceond example to the first?

"He was renamed Minister of the Interior"
"He was renamed to Minister of the Interior"<<

The first example definitely seems preferable. (The second one actually sounds a bit wrong.) It seems in this case "rename" has a slightly different meaning than the "rename" that I had originally used in my sentence about freedom fries. In your example "rename" seems to be used like:

"He was named Minister of Magic, then he got sacked. But then he was renamed Minister of Magic."

Pos and his alter ego M56,

Don't know about applying it to any of those other verbs, but in this case, yes, it can be used and may be preferable at times. Consider these 2 sentences:

>>rename "French fries" to "freedom fries"<<

and

>>rename "French fries" "freedom fries"<<

See how, in the second one, the 2 double quotes are right next to each other? I considered it pretty bad to just leave it like that, so putting the 'to' in between to separate out and make clear where they're separated seemed to be the better choice. You may disagree, or whatever, but it sounds fine to native speakers, and that's all that really matters in the end. Of course, as a non-native speaker who I think is trying to learn the language through bookish, artificial, classroom-style methods, you may not have much of an ear for the language, but I'm a native speaker and I consider myself to have at least a decent ear for the language.

BTW, once you do get an ear for the language, Strunk and White's "Elements of Style" would be a good book to read, as it would help with your prose. One of the things they say is that it's fine to break the rules, as long as it doesn't sound wrong to your ears. This reminds me of grammar class in elementary school (where they taught the grammar of the formal language) where they would mention all these ways a certain form had to be used. I remember I hated it, and would just go with my ear, but apparently the teachers didn't think it fit the formal grammar of it enough and dinged me.

This also reminds me of when I was 6 or so, and I had already started using the word 'ain't' (even though I didn't live in the south). Well, this teacher would follow me around saying, "_Ain't_ ain't a word" every time I used it. I thought, "annoying git." And not just in the classroom, too, she'd follow me around the playground at recess, and would repeat, "_Ain't_ ain't a word" every time she caught me using it. Jeez, talk about prescripitivists being annoying, ain't that the truth?
Pos   Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:39 pm GMT
>>rename "French fries" "freedom fries"<<

<See how, in the second one, the 2 double quotes are right next to each other? I considered it pretty bad to just leave it like that, so putting the 'to' in between to separate out and make clear where they're separated seemed to be the better choice.>

Try rewriting the "sentence".

"French fries were/will be, childishly, renamed freedom fries."

Or trust that sophisticated readers will know what is meant by:

"We will rename this ship Caspio."

Lots of choices, and not ungrammtical and a misuse of the word "rename", as is your "choice".
Guest   Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:49 pm GMT
<Of course, as a non-native speaker who I think is trying to learn the language through bookish, artificial, classroom-style methods, you may not have much of an ear for the language, but I'm a native speaker and I consider myself to have at least a decent ear for the language. >

I am also a native speaker and think your suggestion is nonsense. As said, the word "rename" contains the idea of "to". Now that is a fact.
Pos   Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:52 pm GMT
<I remember I hated it, and would just go with my ear, but apparently the teachers didn't think it fit the formal grammar of it enough and dinged me.>


?? "it fit"??

"it fit the formal grammar..."

Is that also your invention?

<Jeez, talk about prescripitivists being annoying, ain't that the truth? >

Talk about not getting over things that happened to you at 6 or so.
beneficii   Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:58 pm GMT
Pos,

See? I was right. Even other native speakers coming into the forum is not enough to sway. Go back to the original paragraph about the renaming of the French fries and see why the word "childishly" would not be included. (I was imitating stupid, childish Congressmen.)

You have to understand, "Rename A to B" (where A represents the original name and B represents the new name) does not sound wrong to native speakers of English. Furrykef told you that, I told you that. I'd think any native speaker you'd come across would tell you that. If native speakers tell you it does not sound wrong (both Kef and I are native speakers, BTW), then it is not wrong. Recall that linguists define _ungrammatical_ as "sounding wrong to native speakers," not what contradict prescriptive perspectives and expectations.

Still waiting for it to sink in....