Pronunciation of Roman languages

Guest   Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:00 pm GMT
How come many people always tend to give an OPINION by starting with: "You people are so stupid and I know better; let me try make you understand"...

because it is often true
Guest   Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:09 pm GMT
<<How come many people always tend to give an OPINION by starting with: "You people are so stupid and I know better; let me try make you understand"...

because it is often true>>

Could be, depending on the point of view, of course.
Unfortunately, that kind of speech doesn't show clearer signs of intelligence.
Guest   Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:09 pm GMT
I will never repeat enough that these similiraties in the romance languages are TRICKY. Repeat: T-R-I-C-K-Y.
There are A LOT of false friends.
For the 70% of the times these words mean completely different things in the various languages and even when they have similar meanings, they are used in different contexts.
It's hard to find similar words meaning exactly the same thing.
These so famous" similarities" are often an added difficulty not an help.

Banal examples:
Spanish "burro" = donkey
Italian "burro" = butter

French "salir" = to dirty
Italian "salire" = get on
Sergio   Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:15 pm GMT
Hi olaszinho,

I think that you have summarised this quite well. It is most frequently our mistake (as Spanish speakers) to try to minimize or ignore all these phonetic, for our ears maybe too "subtle" or less imporant, features which make the difference between Italian and Spanish standard pronountiation.

The fact that Spanish has the simplest phonetics of these three languages shouldn't be an excuse for us to forget that or to try to make Italian pronountiation to appear closer than it actually is.
Guest   Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:47 pm GMT
Romance languages descend mostly from the same language (Latin) though each one evolved and was influencied in different ways.
Still, these languages are close enough that some native speaker of one of these, with a good grasp of his language, can go to other Romance language speaking country and be able to communicate verbally without learning that language properly, only by ear and intuition. Some sooner, others later.

Will it be easy? No one said so. It also depends on the person and his background. For some it will be fast, for others gradually.

Can everything be easily and literally translated just with a minor accent change? No, at least not always, otherwise it would be the same language!

So are there different sounds and different meanings?? Of course there are. No one is naive enough to think otherwise.
JGreco   Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:04 pm GMT
Olazinho I think you might of simplified the generalizations of the speech of Castellano a little too much. Spanish has many variation among various ways of talking throughout the Castellano speaking world. Some things that you said don't exist in Castellano pronunciation actually does exist in certain variations especially in Rio Platense and Caribbean Castellano varieties. The "Dz" (which exists with "ll" and "y" pronunciations in both varieties) and "sh" (exists in the "ll" and "y" pronunciation in Rio Platense and exists in the "ch" sound of the Caribbean variety of Castellano spoken in Panama) and nasalization (specifically in Caribbean Castellano) do exist in Castellano. Other more difficult pronunciation as aspiration of the "s" sound which was not mention is also wide spread not only in the two varieties mentioned but also in other varieties that exist
Sergio   Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:10 pm GMT
Hi JGreco,

I think olaszinho was talking about "standard" pronountiation of Spanish, regardless of the variation.
Guest   Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:59 pm GMT

<<The main portuguese phonetical features are: nasal vowels, the schwa, the je /gi sounds. (...)
unaccented vowels are almost dropped when portuguese speak very fast. >>
When does these happen?

<<Spanish has got Jota, ce/ze (european spanish) the particular sounds of v/b, d and g between vowels.>>
And also these ones? Can you please show us some examples?
Guest   Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:09 pm GMT
Mia madre dice di sì e chiede se volete stare tutta la settimana.
Dille grazie, ma possiamo restare solo sabato e domenica, putroppo.
Allora, va bene. Ti telefono prima di partire, così ti do le istruzioni necessarie per arrivare. Lo so come arrivare, ma e sempre meglio avere una mappa. Possiamo andare insieme se vuoi. Meglio di no. Sai come sono le donne, sempre in ritardo.

Mi madre dice que sí y pregunta si queréis estar toda la semana.
Dile gracias, mas podemos permanencer sólo sabado y domingo, desagracidamente. Entonces está bien. Te llamo antes de ir, así te doy las instrucciones necesarias para llegar.Sé como llegar, pero es siempre mejor tener un mapa. Podemos ir juntos si quieres. Mejor no. Sabes como son las mujeres, siempre con retraso.
JGreco   Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:58 pm GMT
I still hate generalizations no one really speaks i standard pronunciations unless they are speaking in lectures, in school, or in the government, or for entertainment and televised reasons. Otherwise everyday language is spoken in variation.
olaszinho   Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:51 am GMT
It's not a generalization, take a look at the Spanish International phonological system. Spanish has 27/28 sounds. Of course in some areas there are some phonological variants but no one who decides to learn Spanish must learn those regional sounds unless you are going to live in those areas.
On the other hand every language has got its own local variants but these don't belong to the standard language.
Adolfo   Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:13 am GMT
Italian double consonants are easy to pronounce. You simply has to hold the sound a little bit longer. In Spanish you have double consonants too, despite they are rare: innato, innoble, obvio... Italian of course has some sounds that Spanish lacks, but they do not constitute a special problem for any Spanish speaker.
Guest   Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:27 am GMT
Italian double consanants are easy? Why on earth can't all the spaniards latinos (I know) pronounce them properly?
Spanish has only one real double consonant RR and Portuguese 2 RR and SS.
Adolfo   Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:33 am GMT
I don't know, but I know they are easy to pronounce. Maybe they don't pay atention and are excessively confident with Italian, this leads to make that mistakes, but it is not really difficult. Maybe some of those "latinos" do pronouce innoble as "inoble" as well. RR is not a double consonant in the sense that there are not two consonants to pronounce but one. That there is one R after the other is just a matter of spelling.
Guest   Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:44 am GMT
The fact is the Italian has so many double consonants, sometimes two or three in a single word, besides each consonant can be double bb cc dd ff ll mm etc For instance between l and ll there is a clear difference they sound like two different sounds......