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Pronunciation of Roman languages
">The similarities between Venetian and Spanish are merely a matter of coincidence.<"
Dalmatian was also an language with 'coincidental' similiarities with Spanish (i.e. Nuester / Pun = Nuestro / Pan) etc.
Tout récemment, un goupe de Hollandais, ont entrepris de réconstituer le dalmatien, langue romane éteinte au début su XX siècle qui se parlait sur la côte de l'actuelle Croatie. Si cela vous intéresse, voyez:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6502/
Italian does not have long and short vowels but e and o can be pronounced open or closed like french,portuguese or Catalan. In northern Italy people do have open or closed vowels but their use is often different from the standard italian (literary italian) based on the Tuscan language ( the region of Florence). Anyway almost everybody distinguishes between e (closed) and and è (is) open or o (closed) or and ho (open) I have and so on....
<<I can speak portuguese and I know what I'm talking about. Can you pronounce the word aZienda?? I don't think so That sound does not exist in portuguese. What about the difference between bela/bella cade/cadde, stima/stemma, caro/carro and so on?? the brazilian and portuguese R is quite different....>>
This is true. When brazilian people start to speak italian, they have many problems to pronounce double consonants and the right sound of: Z, S (at the beginning of a word) and R. R is the harder: they learn quickly to prounonce it properly at the beginning of a word (for example ROMA), but NOT with double R that seems to be a huge hard obstacle. Most of the brazilian need a teacher to speak words like CARRO (they usually say CAHO)... So they must learn how to move their tongue. People from São Paulo are good to speak words like PORTA, but those from the rest of the country have the same problem of the double R... in fact they say POHTA. When italian people start to speak portuguese, they have many problems to pronounce "nasal sounds" like BOTÃO, LIÇÕES, etc... Most of them need a teacher...
<<Italian does not have long and short vowels but e and o can be pronounced open or closed like french,portuguese or Catalan. In northern Italy people do have open or closed vowels but their use is often different from the standard italian (literary italian) based on the Tuscan language ( the region of Florence). Anyway almost everybody distinguishes between e (closed) and and è (is) open or o (closed) or and ho (open) I have and so on.... >>
Esattamente, giusta analisi... ;) Ottima l'osservazione sull'apertura delle vocali, che effettivamente al nord sono un po' distorte... Però c'è da dire che a nord si parla un italiano un po' più pulito dalle espressioni dialettali (ad eccezione del Veneto naturalmente), anche se l'uso dei tempi verbali è più corretto al centro-sud.
<<<<Subtle sound differences like between "sur" and "sûr" are harder to grasp.>>
I've never heard of a modern variety of French that distinguishes between these two words. Even in Quebec where length differences are well-preserved, these are homophones.>> I'm talking about the sound changes depending on the word that comes after, like for instance (sur + le) and (sur + la). There is a difference, right? I think "sûr" never changes though...
In Milan Italian E is closed in when a syllable ends with a vowel: as in bene (be-ne), and it's open when a syllable ends in a consonant: dormendo (dor-men-do). Final e in monossylables is open: tre (thus ventitre`), che` (thus perche`). So, Milan Italian DOES have 7 vowel system, but its redistribution is not based on Standard Italian System (Florence-Rome-based) but on the system of Lombard languages (open/closed is syllable related, whether syllable is open or closed).
In standard Italian it's: bEne (open stressed vowel), dormEndo (open stressed vowel), ventitre´ (closed final stressed E, and therefore acute accent in writing, not a gravis), perche´ (closed final E and not open, and therefore accute accent over e, not a gravis). Accents and dialects of Central Italy (Tuscany with Florence, Marche, Lazio with Rome, city of Aquila) have the same distribution of open (E, O) and closed (e,o) as standard Italian (which is based on Tuscan dialect), and people there use the same pronunciation as indicated in dictionaries...All tv people working in dubbing of foreign programs into Italian need to use this pronunciation (and not Milan pronunciation, described earlier, with 7vowels, but wrongly distributed, or Turin or Southern (which pronounce all vowel open)...If you listen to the singers from Rome or Tuscany (Eros, Giorgia, Jessica Morlacchi, Tiziano Ferro, Ambra Angiolini, Syria, Giana Nannini, Zero Assoluto, Marco Masini) you can get this perfect, clear pronunciation... Laura Pausini has 5-vowel system, and people all over the Italy can tell ''accento romagnolo'' (accent from Romagna) in her speech or songs. I don't recommend to copy this accented accent. It's just like Southern US or Scotch English, marked and not neutral)... there is a bit of a conflict in italy since you have 1. roman tv stations (based in rome) which use the standard italian and 2. private tv stations (from milan) which use italian language, but pronounced with lombard pronunciation (open vowels are used instead of closed, closed vowels are used instead of open, double consonants are not always doubled, GN and GL(I) are simplified, instead of being pronounced as double gngn, glgli (this is the standard pronunciation)). some clips with standard pronunciation: Jessica Morlacchi - Un bacio senza fine http://youtube.com/watch?v=e7EKR7xGl14 Marco Masini & Jessica Morlacchi - Nel Mondo dei Sogni http://youtube.com/watch?v=hrEv0DwznlA Zero Assoluto - Semplicemente http://youtube.com/watch?v=4cuqcMss7hw
I downloaded small audio clips from wikipedia about open and close e and o and find no differences.
anche se l'uso dei tempi verbali è più corretto al centro-sud.
It depends on the tenses and moods In the north of Italy people don't generally use the simple past in the spoken language and this can be considered a mistake according to several grammars and the literary italian, but the subjunctive mood is better preserved in the north than in the centre (except Tuscany) and in the south. In my opinion just in Tuscany all tenses and moods are used properly..
<<Venice was not a Spanish colony. The similarities between Venetian and Spanish are merely a matter of coincidence. ... >>
Actually not as coincidental as you would think. Venetian (vèneto) as a language is closer to Spanish than to Italian. It is a member of the Gallo-Iberian group of languages, where Italian is Italo-Dalmatian.
Venetian = Gallo-Iberian? This is nonsense.
However... Emilian, Lombardian, Piedmontese, Occitan and Catalan were the products of one simultaneous wave of romanization (after the Roman victory over Carthage), which may explain their many similarities. Castillian and Venetian were the effect of the following wave. Hence some resemblances perhaps. But this is the only common point I can think of. Aside from that I think any parallel i phonetics is merely accidental.
Before the Romans arrived to Catalonia all the Italian Peninsula was conquered by the Romans, so why do you say they belong to the same chronological stage of Romanization? It is a nonsense.
At some point, they all spoke Latin...
and then evolved phonologically in different ways...
O portugues é a minha lingua predilecta, alguem deseja escrever alguma coisa neste bonito idioma?
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