American English in the UK?

<<here's MY question: why didn't they just say, Hey, this danish is a little old/stale/I just broke a tooth. Can I have a fresh one?>>

If the soup is cold, the glass is dirty or there is a worm in the salad, then it is clear something is wrong. There's a difference between making a mistake like not cleaning a glass properly and just serving shite food. If you think the food is a bit crap, it's rude to say, 'I think the food is a bit crap here, can you please take this back and do a better job!' If one Danish is stale, the rest probably are too. Why ask if you don't expect them to be able to carry out your request and only look rude in the process? It's better to just to go somewhere else next time.

This is my British point of view, I could imagine an American asking (and this is one reason the French (wrongly) think Americans are rude).

[If one Danish is stale, the rest probably are too.]

Actually, George, this is an erroneous assumption. Normally, the person who orders the danishes puts the new ones behind the old ones, so that the stock can be rotated. Sometimes, however, the old ones are already too old, and someone fails to notice; this is what happened in my case.

George, if a request to replace a danish is made nicely, most of the time the waitstaff is very happy to replace them, and thankful for the fact that the problem was brought to their attention.

AJC and GEORGE: You've made points I intend to address, but cannot this morning because of time restraints. I'll get back to you, I promise!

Americans don't know how to cross roads or drive. Why do they put full stop signs at all entrances to intersections?

[Americans don't know how to cross roads or drive. Why do they put full stop signs at all entrances to intersections?]

Actually, English writer Desmond Atholl has said that Americans drive in a calm, orderly fashion--even if they don't THINK they do--compared to Europeans, who dart in and out of traffic at breakneck speeds. His words, not mine.

To answer your question, full stop signs at all four entrances are called "fourway stops"; they are used when traffic is deemed not to be very heavy, between two roads of equal importance.

In situations where one road is deemed "more important" than the other, there will be full stops only on the "unimportant" road.

In very heavy traffic situations, of course, a traffic light is installed.

<<What Americans call 'corn' is maize or sweet corn. >>

I know. I think "Indian corn" was the original colonial term, to set it apart from the grains they were used to in Britain.

However, what WE call "sweet corn" really is a special variety of cor- okay, MAIZE -- that actually has a very high sugar content, and is incredibly tasty. So you can imagine my disappointment when I got "sweetcorn" at an English restaurant that I wouldn't have fed to hogs -- tasteless and starchy and not sweet in the least. I knew "sweetcorn" just meant "corn", but still, deep in my subconscious my brain had my tastebuds all ready for whole different flavor....but then, why would you be connoisseurs of a grain that isn't yours?

<<If you think the food is a bit crap, it's rude to say, 'I think the food is a bit crap here, can you please take this back and do a better job!' If one Danish is stale, the rest probably are too. Why ask if you don't expect them to be able to carry out your request and only look rude in the process? It's better to just to go somewhere else next time. >>

Well, good point. I think we do that too, sometimes, but it just depends on our original expectations. If I'm at a Denny's or an IHOP (two crappy chains not known for their culinary prowess) and I am underwhelmed by my meal, I consider the source and suck it up. I wasn't expecting anything great when I walked in the door. And if I sent it back, I could probably imagine the amount of line cook saliva added upon return. Same with a fast food place or a gas station. If a place like that sucks, you just don't go back -- or only eat there in a pinch.

But if I walk into an establishment that I think is going to be really good and get blah food, I might say something, just because I assume that a poor meal is an anomaly. And the staff might actually be happy to have this pointed out so that it can be corrected, and their standards upheld.

Ameicans also are used to continually having our opinions and feedback as consumers solicited -- ad nauseum, sometimes. I mean, really, every time I call up an 800 number for customer service I get bombarded with invitations to take a satisfaction survey after the call. Seriously, I don't care that much to let them know that their employee was polite and efficient. They should be polite and efficient -- that's what they were hired to be! And since "this call may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance" their supervisors can do their own spotchecks, for chrissakes. I just wanted to pay my bill or check my balance -- leave me alone!

So in that kind of consumer environment, you can see why we are not usually shy about piping up -- it's sort of expected. In other countries, it probably isn't, and we come across as pushy or demanding or as whiny complainers. And hey, maybe we are. ;)

<<[If one Danish is stale, the rest probably are too.]
Actually, George, this is an erroneous assumption.>>

Clearly it was in this case, but the point is a tourist would not know this and is probably unlikely to want to make a fuss over what is really a small point. You had already offered to make it more palatable, which was clearly appreciated. I think it is wise to be a little cautious when in a foreign place, and that what these people seemed be. If they knew you made fresh ones regularly, they may have asked, but the risk of you not having any fresh ones and appearing ungrateful to you was too great by their estimation.

I look forward to hearing from you.

<<[Americans don't know how to cross roads or drive. Why do they put full stop signs at all entrances to intersections?]
Actually, English writer Desmond Atholl has said that Americans drive in a calm, orderly fashion--even if they don't THINK they do--compared to Europeans, who dart in and out of traffic at breakneck speeds. His words, not mine.>>

It's just that the rules are different. It's a different style of driving. I was used to walking behind cars which were waiting at junctions, but US drivers expect you to walk in front of them. If I started to walk out in the road to walk behind them, expecting them to drive past, they would slow down and get in my way even more. Clearly, it was my job to adjust to the norm there and I did.

Again, it's a bit silly to lump Europeans together in one. Statistically, per head of population, twice as many people die on American roads than in the UK. But the numbers are roughly the same in Portugal and in the US.

<<So you can imagine my disappointment when I got "sweetcorn" at an English restaurant that I wouldn't have fed to hogs -- tasteless and starchy and not sweet in the least.>>

I understand your disappointment. Although never noticed that particular difference, there are lots. I felt the same disappointment in the US when I bought baked beans, chocolate and sliced meat. But it would be a dull world if we were all the same. :)

What was wrong with the baked beans. There a bit of a staple over here, so I'm curious.

[But if I walk into an establishment that I think is going to be really good and get blah food, I might say something, just because I assume that a poor meal is an anomaly. And the staff might actually be happy to have this pointed out so that it can be corrected, and their standards upheld.]

Yes!

Well said, Uriel. We cannot know if a menu item is inferior until the customers tell us. For example, we didn't know the Buffalo Wings were too salty until we received some feedback. It turned out that the sauce, kept in a jug, was not being shaken; as the bottom of the jug was approached, the buffalo wings were being soaked in sediment, instead of sauce.

An element of common sense is in order. It's both fruitless and infuriating to be told that the toast was not the right shade of amber; such a complaint will get you the "fish eye". But if the food is genuinely inedible, please tell us!!

GEORGE: I forgot to address one point.

Apropos the awful vs awesome controversy, "awful" has been used for possibly centuries, so its usage is completely accepted. By contrast, "awesome" is new; it will take years--until old fogeys like me are dead--before its skanky origins are forgotten and the word is fully accepted.

[Again, it's a bit silly to lump Europeans together in one.]

Please keep in mind that those were the words of an English writer--I merely quoted them...

George: Something you said earlier triggered a memory--the memory of a long-forgotten passage, read in Fodor's CRUISE SHIPS, paraphrased:

"Keep in mind that P & O is a British-owned ship. As such, service standards are likely to be British. The British do not place the same kinds of demands on the waitstaff as Americans--their demands are rather minimal by comparison. When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

George, with the danish episode in mind, perhaps the good English ladies were not expecting "British" service. This, along with the possible presupposition that Americans might be insincere, might have been the reason they were so gob-smacked. Do you agree? I reiterate that perhaps more than one factor was at play when discerning their frames of mind. I tend to agree, more or less, with your analysis of the situation.

Concerning the tipping episode, however, I think I might have to disagree. The trouble is that the English women gave me additional money ANYWAY--even though I didn't expect it. This seems to shed the episode in an entirely different light.

Before I address the "Fairbanks" immigration issue, I thought that a small webpage--written by a Finn--might be of interest to some of you. (It's a short but interesting read.) Astute readers will notice the reference to "extremely friendly people." To wit:

http://snipurl.com/3osh5 [members_virtualtourist_com]

I met another American woman on a trip to Paris who lived in the Phillippines (no, really! She was a lot of fun!), but had once worked for a bank in Alaska. I think she was based in Anchorage, but had to take a trip to the branch in Fairbanks once a month or so. Anchorage and Fairbanks aren't exactly right next dorr to each other -- they're hours and hours apart. Anyway, one day she had made the drive and was just pulling up to the branch when the lone teller walked out, turned the sign to "closed", and made as if to leave. It was still well before closing time, on a rare sunny day, so my acquaintance asked her politely what the hell she thought she was doing. The woman looked perplexed and replied, "Closing." When my acquaintance still didn't get it, the teller pointed upwards. "The sun's out."

It dawned on my acquaintnace that not only did Fairbanksians live at a much more laidback pace, but that nice weather must be a truly valuable commodity if it was worth grinding the wheels of commerce to a halt to enjoy!

At one point in his career my dad was being considered for a position in Fairbanks. His counterpart in that position mentioned that not only do you have to plug your car into an electric heater to keep the engine block from freezing, but sometimes it gets so cold that your tires go flat. I don't think he was too heartbroken when he didn't get the job....

<<What was wrong with the baked beans.>>

The sauce has a different taste. I just don't like it as much. Pork is also frequently added. I realised something had been lost in translation when I found a tin of 'vegetarian beans' --- 'How could they not be?', I naively thought. :)

<<George, with the danish episode in mind, perhaps the good English ladies were not expecting "British" service. This, along with the possible presupposition that Americans might be insincere, might have been the reason they were so gob-smacked.>>

(This is not important, but P&O is a company.) They probably were not sure what to expect and probably didn't want to put you to too much trouble. The key thing is that not all parties have all the information available to them (including us analysts). They did not know that some feedback would be appreciated or that fresh pastries were available. If fact, as I said, it seems wise to assume things are as they should be, than go and complain that things are not quite how they should and would be in Blighty.

I do think difference in expectations of service is a little over-rated in general. There certainly are differences, but again, it's just a difference of culture and I find it hard to say one is 'worse' than the other. While I liked having a glass of water brought to the table in the US as standard, I found having refilled after every second sip rather intrusive. Perhaps an American expects that kind of servitude, but I didn't like it much. My advice to everyone (including myself) is just to try to find the value of a different way of looking at things.

<<Concerning the tipping episode, however, I think I might have to disagree. The trouble is that the English women gave me additional money ANYWAY--even though I didn't expect it.>>

I don't think this really changes anything. They could have quite easily read that tipping is normal in the US, or the sign may have lead them to believe it was normally normal, so to speak, so the right thing to do was insist on a tip. Having spent lots of time in the US, I know that Americans don't normally ask you not to tip, but they would not know that so decided to play it safe and give a tip anyway.

<<Hilda, if you don't mind my asking, how would you personally have perceived the incident with danishes? That is, would you have been surprised if the waiter had brought heated, fresh ones without being asked?>>

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been a bit busy.

I think I would also have been pleased that the waiter had gone out of his way to help. I would probably have found the mix-up quite funny, too.

My point is, though, that I've been both pleasantly surprised and irritated by service I've received in Britain, too - we have good waiters and bad waiters here, like most places! I certainly wouldn't think it was extraordinary for a waiter to be helpful, unless I was in central London, perhaps. But impersonal and over-priced service is my experience in the city centre of most large capitals.

Maybe it's worth recounting an anecdote my American flatmate told me, here. She's from West Virginia. The first time she went to New York she was just 17 and really excited. She needed some cash, and so went into a shop that had an ATM sign outside. She went straight to the desk and asked where the machine was, to which the shop assistant pointed over her shoulder and said "It's over there. What are you, a f***ing retard?!"

Funny as it is, what conclusions can you draw from this? That all Americans are rude? Of course not, that would be silly.

Jasper, I have to repeat that I don't think you can draw significant conclusions about supposed "national character" from a handful of anecdotal incidents, especially as I'm sure we tend to remember those which already reinforce our stereotypes and prejudices.

I lived in Italy for a number of years, and so have hundreds of anecdotes of how people there have behaved on different occasions.Yet despite knowing the country very well, I still spontaneously think of Italians as generally talking loudly and being disorganised - this in spite of the fact that I know a number of Italians who are quiet, shy, and meticulous. It's human nature to make inaccurate generalisations.

<<Of course people love to hate Americans; if the English and Europeans could set up concentration camps to murder all 300 million Americans, they'd do it in a heartbeat.>>

Ignoring the stupidity of this comment, just a point for future reference.. "British" means English, Welsh and Scottish - and sometimes Northern Irish, depending on your view.

Referring to the population of the UK as "English" quite rightly infuriates Scots and the Welsh.

Also, the British are European - no need to make a distinction!