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Hey British guys, I love this accent!!!

Terry   Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:27 pm GMT

<<"America" is the Latinized version of "Amerigo". I think it's more widely accepted that the place was named after Vespucci after a German cartographer erroneously assumed that Amerigo Vespucci had discovered the place. >> Yes, Uriel, that's what I was taught but I suppose the other Ameryk story could have some validity. Who knows?

Terry   Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:33 pm GMT

<<To all you American girls out there: Most British men do NOT look or sound like Hugh Grant or Pierce Brosnan. >> I don't think any of us ever thought they did. Where did you get that impression? >> Really, Uriel, I don't have that impression either. I'm not the best on accents but as I just told Rick I was hard put to tell between RP and the Northern accent. :) But of course she was painting us all with the same brush, a common error we all make sometimes.

Uriel   Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:54 pm GMT

Well, of course we Americans all sound like cowboys or goodfellas, right? ;)

Rick Johnson   Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:55 pm GMT

<<I couldn't tell his accent from RP really. It sounded almost the same to me. It must be the American ear.>> The easiest thing to listen out for is pronunciation of certain words. As a general rule "glass" in the south rhymes with arse, in the north and midlands it rhymes with ass. The same vowel sounds apply to "ask", "plant", "grass","pass", "last", "grant" etc. Think north= short, south= long. Other thinks to listen for is that "u" sounds in the north are given their full weight.

Uriel   Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:00 pm GMT

You know, the problem with the word "arse" is that whenever I see it written, even though I KNOW you don't say it that way, I always mentally think "arrrrse" -- the way *I* would have to say anything spelled with an R ... ...and then there's some snickering.

Kirk   Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:06 pm GMT

<<Other thinks to listen for is that "u" sounds in the north are given their full weight.>> Maybe you're referring to the "foot-strut" split? For those unfamiliar with it, in North England "strut" has the same vowel as "foot," which is /U/ in X-SAMPA. This was once the S. British vowel as well but centuries ago S. Britain experienced the "foot-strut" split (which is also present in the US so the change had probably already been completed before American colonization in the early 17th century). <<The easiest thing to listen out for is pronunciation of certain words. As a general rule "glass" in the south rhymes with arse, in the north and midlands it rhymes with ass. The same vowel sounds apply to "ask", "plant", "grass","pass", "last", "grant" etc. Think north= short, south= long. >> Yeah, that's a major clue. When I hear that I can be sure it's a Nothern British accent. For those unfamiliar with it, this is the "trap-bath" split. S. British English used to have the same vowel for both of those but it experienced a split for those classes of words in the late 18th century and 19th century. This change mostly happened too late for it to influence American accents (since the US had been colonized almost two centuries before the change) so most US accents retain the older vowel here, as does Northern British accents. If anyone gets the Travel Channel and has seen "Stranded" with Cash Peters, he's obviously from the North because he is not "foot-strut" split nor is he "trap-bath" split.

Ryan   Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:06 pm GMT

"Arse" with a pronounced "r" is how Canadians say it though. That's always funny to hear.

Kirk   Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:07 pm GMT

<<You know, the problem with the word "arse" is that whenever I see it written, even though I KNOW you don't say it that way, I always mentally think "arrrrse" -- the way *I* would have to say anything spelled with an R ... ...and then there's some snickering.>> Well, some British speakers are rhotic (and the North is one of the places you'll find some of them), so Rick *might* say it with an /r/ ;) Rick, are you rhotic?

Rick Johnson   Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:34 pm GMT

<<Rick, are you rhotic?>> I'm not, but about 5 miles north of where I live is Bolton (where Adam lives) where there is some rhoticity in the accent, a few miles North of there the accent becomes extremely rhotic so people from Blackburn pronounce it Blackburrrn. I don't have a particularly strong accent, but where I live in in the suburbs of Manchester the accents are particularly sharp and nasal. Just a couple of miles North and accents change to Lancashire accents where they are typically broad and flat- some rhotic, some non rhotic. I remember seeing an Aussie comedian once who commented on how quickly accents change in England, he said (putting on piss-take RP voice) "by the sound of your accent I would say you from around Bob's house" which while funny, isn't so far from the truth!! <<I always mentally think "arrrrse">> If you've ever seen the Irish TV show Father Ted, that pronunciation reminds me of the character Father Jack Hackett. "Drink, feck, girrrls, arrrse!

Kirk   Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:42 pm GMT

<<I'm not, but about 5 miles north of where I live is Bolton (where Adam lives) where there is some rhoticity in the accent, a few miles North of there the accent becomes extremely rhotic so people from Blackburn pronounce it Blackburrrn. I don't have a particularly strong accent, but where I live in in the suburbs of Manchester the accents are particularly sharp and nasal. Just a couple of miles North and accents change to Lancashire accents where they are typically broad and flat- some rhotic, some non rhotic.>> Oh, that's interesting--thanks for explaining :) <<I remember seeing an Aussie comedian once who commented on how quickly accents change in England, he said (putting on piss-take RP voice) "by the sound of your accent I would say you from around Bob's house" which while funny, isn't so far from the truth!!>> Haha--that gave me a good chuckle! You're right--it can *almost* be true in some cases!

Rick Johnson   Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:47 am GMT

<<I met an Englishman in London who kept calling me "love," which I now know from you and Candy, means, he was probably from the North of England.>> Another word that I forgot to mention last time, that is used in the NE of England (around Newcastle) is "pet". The word "love" is possibly used in the south sometimes, but it's more that it's overused in the North. "Pet", however, is only ever used by people in the North East. Their other favourite expression is "man" - why aye Terry man, tha's right pet! Geordies (people from Newcastle) typically use "man" for both male and females. As a point of interest George Washington's family came from this area (there is a place Washington, Tyne and Wear) I often think how amusing it would be if he and his father had Geordie accents. FATHER: Howay man, some bastad 'as cut doon ma cherry tree GEORGE: Why aye fatha man, it waz me, I cannat tell a lai!

Michael   Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:10 am GMT

<<Maybe you're referring to the "foot-strut" split? For those unfamiliar with it, in North England "strut" has the same vowel as "foot," which is /U/ in X-SAMPA. This was once the S. British vowel as well but centuries ago S. Britain experienced the "foot-strut" split (which is also present in the US so the change had probably already been completed before American colonization in the early 17th century).>> Actually, Kirk, I used to think the same thing as a result of reading the JC Wells book (namely, that "strut" words take the "foot" vowel) in north of England English. However, after watching "The Full Monty" (which takes place in the Sheffield area) and after listening to a northern speaker on an antique auctions programme (who, by the way was aslo blond - are they all fair-haired up north?) it seems to me that many northern speakers actually use the "lot" vowel in place of the "strut" vowel (rather than the "foot" vowel). For example, up is op, money is mony - not muney, and fuck - which is used a lot in "The Full Monty" always seems to be pronounced "fock" - not "fook"). As a male who can pull off a practically flawless U-RP accent (with tapped intervocalic 'r', smoothing, ellision, linking 'r', intrusive 'r', the use of "kit' instead of "fleece" in words ending in 'y' and in the final syllable of their plural forms, the distinct pronunciation of "near-square-cure" words in final utterance position, a very back "a" in "bath-palm-start", clear intervocalic "l", and a host of other phonetic characteristics of RP which fall outside the obvious ones which most people are familiar with) I find that I am somewhat hesitant to use it for the purpose of "picking up" girls. I am assuming that most American women will find it prissy and effeminate and that most British women will find it too "snooty" or "posh". Some people have described this accent as being languid and effete. So, "why not just tone it down a bit?" you might ask. Well, I'm working on it. I don't really think that accent is as much of a factor as some make it out to be when it comes to men meeting women (although it just might possibly be somewhat of a factor when it comes to women meeting men). However, even in the latter case it may not really matter since many men out there (though by no means all) are just after one thing - and it has nothing to do with a girl's accent. However, I suppose that British women in general (and RP speaking women, in particular to those who are not too braindead to tell the difference) may come across as more "fascinating" to some American men who are looking for something more than a one night stand and who are of that sort of inclination. This is a rather grey issue.

Travis   Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:44 am GMT

>>Actually, the "perfect" man would be both handsome and RP speaking. However, since that is often not the case, I would rather sleep with a handsome non-RP speaking man than with an ugly RP-speaking one. Even that is an oversimplification since there are infinitely many degrees of handsomeness and ugliness and an infinitely range of accents anywhere in England rangling from the broadest local accent all the way up to RP. If I just wanted a good fuck I would go for the looks and to hell with the accent. However, if I wanted a sincere, caring, long-term relationship with a man who will treat me with courtesy, dignity, and respect.... Well, in that case his speech (in addition to his personality, intelligence, and maturity) would be a factor.<< Of course, that begs the question of why would his speech have anything to do him treating one with coutesy, dignity, and respect in the first place. >>Although an RP-speaking man may turn out to be a playboy or a cad, he is equally likely (or even more likely) to turn out to be a gentleman. However, a man with a very broad local accent is not very likely to be a gentleman. Such men can sometimes be very "slippery" with women (although that is sometimes also the case with upper class men).<< Of course, if someone wasn't born into a family that was RP-speaking, if they did *become* RP-speaking, that could indicate a whole number of things, which are not necessarily good things. For instance, a level of self-consciousness with respect to overall accent, a level of being social ladder-climbing in nature, and a level of elitism with respect to accent, potentially. >>The only men I would really reject as potential long-term mates are those who fall below a certain degree of handsomess or those whose accents falls beyond a certain degree of commoness.<< What do either of those have to do with whether someone is a good long-term mate? >>The truth of the matter is that you have to look at the entire man and not just one particular aspect. You have to see if the "package" is what you want, even if one or two elements of that package are less than perfect.<< Well, yes, and I don't see how the element of accent/dialect is at all relevant with respect to looking at such in and of itself alone. >>To me, the men on "The Full Monty" movie are not exactly husband material (although I find the movie to be an excellent one). Aside from looks, the accents they use are so divergent from RP that they might as well be from a totally different country than Pierce Brosnan or Hugh Grant. This is also true of the broadest Cockney. I don't like my men to be highbrows but I DO want then to sound just a little bit more educated than that.<< Of course, whether they sound like they are from a totally different country from Pierce Brosnan and Hugh Grant at least should be irrelevant here, and furthermore, there is nothing about sounding like such that stops one from being "a little more educated", or vice versa. >>Most Americans who are push-overs to "British accents" have either never heard such accents or are completely braindead in confusing them with anything even REMOTELY resembling RP.<< Well, yes, most Americans are likely to be very ignorant with respect to English accents/dialects beyond just RP, Cockney, and *maybe* Estuary English, especially since the only English accent most Americans have been exposed to is RP, near-RP, and just maybe Estuary today. >>The truth is that the vast majority of Americans are extremely stupid (among other things) for thinking that all British people talk like certain British characters in popular American movies or epic movies or who guest star on American TV programmes. They incorrectly draw a parallel between RP (which is on its deathbed as we speak) to GAE (which is currently used by over two-thirds of native born Americans). The truth is that RP in Britain does NOT correspond to GAE in the US. It is NOT characteristic of the way the average British person speaks.<< Well, yes, RP and GAE are very different kinds of "standards". RP is a quite specific form closely linked, at least classically, with high social class and like, whereas GAE is more like just a very vague, very generic "average" of how most Americans today speak. >>Most Americans don't even know what the hell RP is anyway. However, it's what they typically associate with a "British" accent. They think that "British English" is refined even though what they consider "British English" is the accent which is spoken by certain actors and not by the general public in the UK.<< Of course. >>The truth is that most Americans know as much about the sociolinguistics of British speech as a rubbish collector knows about particle physics.<< Well, they aren't linguists, overall, and they don't live in the UK, so can expect that from them. >>Sadly, their love of "British" speech stems from pure, complete, and total ignorance and is based on a VERY false and misleading stereotype of how british people really talk.<< Well, yes - would one expect everyone to sound like Hugh Grant? >>To all you American girls out there: Most British men do NOT look or sound like Hugh Grant or Pierce Brosnan. You need to start watching some REAL British programming with REAL people. Enough said.<< Not like we get that much here if you don't watch PBS or get BBC in the first place and then bother to actually watch it.

Zelmo   Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:17 am GMT

<<Of course, if someone wasn't born into a family that was RP-speaking, if they did *become* RP-speaking, that could indicate a whole number of things, which are not necessarily good things. For instance, a level of self-consciousness with respect to overall accent, a level of being social ladder-climbing in nature, and a level of elitism with respect to accent, potentially.>> It COULD also indicate that this person is simply well-educated. It IS possible to become RP speaking by going to the right school/university and getting a good education, regardless of how your family spoke. Why does RP ALWAYS have to be associated with upper class people and NEVER with people who are educated? Why does it always have to be a "class" thing rather than a "level of education" thing? Why does an RP speaker always have to be described as "posh" or "upper-crust" rather than "educated", "erudite', or even "intellectual"? Why does everyone who "learns" RP have to be a goldigger and not someone who has simply become educated? Why the FUCK does it ALWAYS have to be about MONEY and NEVER about BRAINS?!?!?! Why does RP always have do be about how much money you have rather than on how much brains you have?

Travis   Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:50 am GMT

>>It COULD also indicate that this person is simply well-educated. It IS possible to become RP speaking by going to the right school/university and getting a good education, regardless of how your family spoke.<< That begs the question of how having a good education has anything to do with what accent one has or what dialect one speaks, and also just how one ended up going to "the right school/university" in the first place. >>Why does RP ALWAYS have to be associated with upper class people and NEVER with people who are educated? Why does it always have to be a "class" thing rather than a "level of education" thing? Why does an RP speaker always have to be described as "posh" or "upper-crust" rather than "educated", "erudite', or even "intellectual"? << For starters, if one learned it natively, then such of course has nothing in itself to do with education, but it has everything to do with what overall social class one is likely to be born into to begin with, were one to be born into a family in which RP is spoken at home. >>Why does everyone who "learns" RP have to be a goldigger and not someone who has simply become educated?<< Yes, it does not necessarily indicate such. At the same time, learning such is predicated upon why one has learned it in the first place, which would be either a want to learn it, which then in turn begs the question of why exactly one wants to replace one's native dialect with such, or coming to be immersed in an environment such that one picked it up from those around one, which of course leads to the question of how one came to be in such an environment (e.g. a British public school, social circles in which RP is often spoken) in the first place. Of course, that has nothing to do with whether one oneself is a "gold-digger", or not, but it cannot be said that it is not entirely linked with social class or money (not necessarily one's own, as one could be from a family that has the money to send one to a public school). either. >>Why the FUCK does it ALWAYS have to be about MONEY and NEVER about BRAINS?!?!?! Why does RP always have do be about how much money you have rather than on how much brains you have?<< Why does speaking with a particular accent mean that one has brains, and why would having brains require one to speak with a particular accent?