I know exactly what you're saying which is correct from a technical point of view but think about the convention: this is what's important in the bigger scheme of things.
"Half ten" - nine-thirty or ten-thirty?
"I am sorry, but midnight, one hour after 11 PM, is, not surprisingly, followed by 12 PM."
That's a confusing statement. If it's 11.01 pm and one hour passes, the time will be 12.01 am. So it follows that the time preceding this by 50 odd seconds should be 12.00 am. Think about this.
That's a confusing statement. If it's 11.01 pm and one hour passes, the time will be 12.01 am. So it follows that the time preceding this by 50 odd seconds should be 12.00 am. Think about this.
I am sorry, Guest, I did jumble that sentence.
It should be: "I am sorry, but midnight, which is one hour after 11 PM, is, not surprisingly, 12 PM."
But, I stand by my point. It's crazy to say that night time goes from 11 PM to 12 AM and then back to 1 AM.
It seems alright only if these are just two letters with no meaning. But they DO have meaning.
What you would be saying is:
11 PM This is the 11th hour after noon
12 AM This is the 12th hour of the morning (there's actually no such time)
1 AM This is the FIRST hour of the morning.
Somehow we lost the first 11 hours of the morning between your 11 PM and your 12 AM.
Yes, we commonly say 12:01 AM, but this denotes the first minute of the first hour of the morning. It has nothing to do with the quantity 12 hours.
When you are born, that is the first DAY of your life; it's the first day of your first year, but you are not yet 1 year old. Just a few seconds earlier, you were a 9 month old fetus, yet now you are no longer 9 months old, you are 1 minute old.
In the same way 11:59 PM (fetal time) becomes 12:00 PM (fetal time) which then becomes 12:01 AM -- actually 00:01 AM -- baby time. We forget about the previous 9 months, and the previous 12 hours. They are gone. It's a new day. We start over. We start counting toward noon, instead of away from it.
11:59:01 PM
11:59:59 PM
12:00:00 PM
-----------
12:00:01 AM (really 00:00:01) AM
12:00:59 AM
12:01:00 AM
Why should the last hour of the day have only 59 minutes, and 59 seconds, when all others have all 60?? You wait until the last grain of sand has fallen from the top of the hour glass, and only then do you turn it over, and switch from calling the time PM, to calling it AM.
Now, by this very logic, shouldn't noon then be 12:00 AM? Yes, if AM didn't mean anything, and if the time we commonly call 12:01 AM hadn't been almost 12 hours previous.
Noon is the balance point between before noon, and after noon. It's that moment when the sun is neither getting higher, nor getting lower. We are neither in the time before noon, nor in the time after noon. To call noon AM or PM is to do violence to their meanings, its meaning, and to logic.
All ambiguity, and foolishness would be gone if midnight were called 12 PM, which it is, and noon were written 12:00 without AM or PM. Then, 1 minute past noon, 00:01 PM would proceed gracefully through to 12:00 PM, turning over to 12:01 AM (really 00:01 AM) and on up through 11:59 AM to 12:00 Noon. Why this mindless insistence it be followed by a PM or AM when it is neither?
It should be: "I am sorry, but midnight, which is one hour after 11 PM, is, not surprisingly, 12 PM."
But, I stand by my point. It's crazy to say that night time goes from 11 PM to 12 AM and then back to 1 AM.
It seems alright only if these are just two letters with no meaning. But they DO have meaning.
What you would be saying is:
11 PM This is the 11th hour after noon
12 AM This is the 12th hour of the morning (there's actually no such time)
1 AM This is the FIRST hour of the morning.
Somehow we lost the first 11 hours of the morning between your 11 PM and your 12 AM.
Yes, we commonly say 12:01 AM, but this denotes the first minute of the first hour of the morning. It has nothing to do with the quantity 12 hours.
When you are born, that is the first DAY of your life; it's the first day of your first year, but you are not yet 1 year old. Just a few seconds earlier, you were a 9 month old fetus, yet now you are no longer 9 months old, you are 1 minute old.
In the same way 11:59 PM (fetal time) becomes 12:00 PM (fetal time) which then becomes 12:01 AM -- actually 00:01 AM -- baby time. We forget about the previous 9 months, and the previous 12 hours. They are gone. It's a new day. We start over. We start counting toward noon, instead of away from it.
11:59:01 PM
11:59:59 PM
12:00:00 PM
-----------
12:00:01 AM (really 00:00:01) AM
12:00:59 AM
12:01:00 AM
Why should the last hour of the day have only 59 minutes, and 59 seconds, when all others have all 60?? You wait until the last grain of sand has fallen from the top of the hour glass, and only then do you turn it over, and switch from calling the time PM, to calling it AM.
Now, by this very logic, shouldn't noon then be 12:00 AM? Yes, if AM didn't mean anything, and if the time we commonly call 12:01 AM hadn't been almost 12 hours previous.
Noon is the balance point between before noon, and after noon. It's that moment when the sun is neither getting higher, nor getting lower. We are neither in the time before noon, nor in the time after noon. To call noon AM or PM is to do violence to their meanings, its meaning, and to logic.
All ambiguity, and foolishness would be gone if midnight were called 12 PM, which it is, and noon were written 12:00 without AM or PM. Then, 1 minute past noon, 00:01 PM would proceed gracefully through to 12:00 PM, turning over to 12:01 AM (really 00:01 AM) and on up through 11:59 AM to 12:00 Noon. Why this mindless insistence it be followed by a PM or AM when it is neither?
There's no ambiguity in the current convention of using 12 PM for noon and 12 AM for midnight. People and technology do not confuse one for the other as you might be suggesting.
Notice how the clock on your Windows (or other O/S) desktop/system tray goes from 11:59:59 AM -> 12:00:00 PM (not 12:00:00 AM). It's simpler for the computer to track the extra byte with "PM" and "AM" than with "noon" and "midnight" or a total blank. This principle applies to time keeping elsewhere for its simplicity. It's perfectly rational as every second of the day is still accounted for.
The other reason for this convention is probably because truncating the Seconds digits in 12:00:01 PM yields 12:00 PM (my old "fraction of a second" argument). It's easier this way, than thinking of the truncation of 12:00:01 PM as 12:00 AM -- that would get confusing at times (haha).
Notice how the clock on your Windows (or other O/S) desktop/system tray goes from 11:59:59 AM -> 12:00:00 PM (not 12:00:00 AM). It's simpler for the computer to track the extra byte with "PM" and "AM" than with "noon" and "midnight" or a total blank. This principle applies to time keeping elsewhere for its simplicity. It's perfectly rational as every second of the day is still accounted for.
The other reason for this convention is probably because truncating the Seconds digits in 12:00:01 PM yields 12:00 PM (my old "fraction of a second" argument). It's easier this way, than thinking of the truncation of 12:00:01 PM as 12:00 AM -- that would get confusing at times (haha).
well, in most of the educated speakers it's : ten thirty or half past ten,
but guys U know the people.... the just look for the ease...huh!
but guys U know the people.... the just look for the ease...huh!
Bill the Yank is of course talking complete nonsense. If we consider the literal meanings of "a.m." and "p.m." as still relevant to their actual meanings, then during daylight savings, an hour after 11.30 pm should be 12.30 pm, and an hour after 11.30 am should be 12.30 am, whereas during normal itme, an hour after 11.30 pm should be 12.30 am, and an hour after 11.30 am should be 12.30 pm. Furthermore, this only applies if you are standing on the exact centrepoint of how your timezone would be distributed if you political boundaries didn't interfere. Although Bill the Yank might have an internal GPS system and can calculate from this the exact moment of the meridian of any given spot and use that to decide when to switch from "am" to "pm", the rest of us—thank god—neither do nor can. I would also be interested in Bill the Yank's ability to use "am" and "pm" for *future* times. Is he capable of accurately predicting all the future wobbles and inconsistenties in the Earth's rotation? And for past times—does he have a database of all the historical moments of the meridian?
This is of course simply not the way it's done—the suffixes "a.m." and "p.m." are just conventional suffixes. There use is defined by convention, not the sun's location in the sky. By convention, seeing a one trillionth of a second after twelve o'clock noon is logically "pm", then so to is twelve o'clock noon is "12.00 pm"; logically, therefore, midnight is "12.00 am".
Furthermore, Bill the Yank's objections to the calling the zeroth hour "12" is, again, misplaced. Just like our conventional dating system, our conventional time system does not make use of zero (except as a place-holder). By convention, time runs from 12 o'clock to 1 o'clock around to 11 o'clock, and back to 12 o'clock again. In the conventional system of 12-hour time used by most English speakers, there is no zero, instead, we have twelve. If he finds it difficult to deal with this, he may prefer to use the more recently developed 24-hour time, which does start at 0000 hours. Although this may not be such a good idea. He might be somewhat confused by the fact that the first hour after the start is 0100 hours, with a plural, and also that 24 hour time is conventionally used without a 24th hour: 0000 hrs is preferred over 2400! In addition "0100 hours" is not the start of the first hour, but the second!
The mind boggles at the difficulty of time, it's a wonder we can ever arrange to meet at a particular time!—or it would be, except that the most of us just get by by sticking to conventions and not trying to rationalise it too much. You can at least deal with it if you do that!
This is of course simply not the way it's done—the suffixes "a.m." and "p.m." are just conventional suffixes. There use is defined by convention, not the sun's location in the sky. By convention, seeing a one trillionth of a second after twelve o'clock noon is logically "pm", then so to is twelve o'clock noon is "12.00 pm"; logically, therefore, midnight is "12.00 am".
Furthermore, Bill the Yank's objections to the calling the zeroth hour "12" is, again, misplaced. Just like our conventional dating system, our conventional time system does not make use of zero (except as a place-holder). By convention, time runs from 12 o'clock to 1 o'clock around to 11 o'clock, and back to 12 o'clock again. In the conventional system of 12-hour time used by most English speakers, there is no zero, instead, we have twelve. If he finds it difficult to deal with this, he may prefer to use the more recently developed 24-hour time, which does start at 0000 hours. Although this may not be such a good idea. He might be somewhat confused by the fact that the first hour after the start is 0100 hours, with a plural, and also that 24 hour time is conventionally used without a 24th hour: 0000 hrs is preferred over 2400! In addition "0100 hours" is not the start of the first hour, but the second!
The mind boggles at the difficulty of time, it's a wonder we can ever arrange to meet at a particular time!—or it would be, except that the most of us just get by by sticking to conventions and not trying to rationalise it too much. You can at least deal with it if you do that!
I couldn't have said it better, Felix. Who ever calls 12 o'clock the zeroth hour? (rhetorical question).
I couldn't have said it better, Felix. Who ever calls 12 o'clock the zeroth hour? (rhetorical question). As you said, that's what the 24 hour clock is for!
Actually, I used to confuse 12 AM and 12 PM all the time :-p. That is, I used to think that noon was 12 AM and midnight was 12 PM, haha.
Maybe that's because I wasn't raised in a predominantly English-speaking country. In Chinese, noon is noon, period.
So, from a foreigner's perspective, Bill the Yank DOES make some sense. Go easy on him, people ^.^
(Of course, I'm not saying that the terminology should be changed. Noon has been "12 PM" for hundreds of years, and if the expression has survived to this day, then so be it.)
Maybe that's because I wasn't raised in a predominantly English-speaking country. In Chinese, noon is noon, period.
So, from a foreigner's perspective, Bill the Yank DOES make some sense. Go easy on him, people ^.^
(Of course, I'm not saying that the terminology should be changed. Noon has been "12 PM" for hundreds of years, and if the expression has survived to this day, then so be it.)
<< So, from a foreigner's perspective, Bill the Yank DOES make some sense. Go easy on him, people ^.^ >>
Bill the Yank does make some sense. If his way of doing it was the conventional way, I'd have nothing to say about it. But arguing that the way we do it is wrong and we should change it to something else is a lot of nonsense because any argument in favor of doing it some other way is going to come up with more errors of the same sort. He's just advocating another convention which is going to be no more nor less accurate than the current convention—why fix what ain't much broken by replacing it with something ... that's no better?
Bill the Yank does make some sense. If his way of doing it was the conventional way, I'd have nothing to say about it. But arguing that the way we do it is wrong and we should change it to something else is a lot of nonsense because any argument in favor of doing it some other way is going to come up with more errors of the same sort. He's just advocating another convention which is going to be no more nor less accurate than the current convention—why fix what ain't much broken by replacing it with something ... that's no better?
Felix, I stopped reading your post when you attempted to use Daylight Savings to challenge my argument.
And, it amazes me that people who regularly reach back to very old languages, and claim to be linguists would so quickly, and easily dispense with the MEANINGS of AM, and PM.
What's up with that?
Words MEAN things, or else what are you all doing here?
Since when does Bill Gates trump Latin? He must know, his software is always perfect. Every week another 14 year old cracker -- NOT hacker --blows it up.
Calling midnight 12 Ante Meridian is laughable, ignorant, and illiterate, and yes I know that you think "illiterate" means only the complete inability to read and write.
Are you linguists or not? Are you really willing to endorse the errors of ignorant time-table printers?
Your arguments make NO sense. HOW can 12 AM logically be followed by 1 AM?? 12 PM is the end of the last hour of evening. At this point we roll over into the first hour of morning, the Ante Meridian, AM.
Give it up.
And, it amazes me that people who regularly reach back to very old languages, and claim to be linguists would so quickly, and easily dispense with the MEANINGS of AM, and PM.
What's up with that?
Words MEAN things, or else what are you all doing here?
Since when does Bill Gates trump Latin? He must know, his software is always perfect. Every week another 14 year old cracker -- NOT hacker --blows it up.
Calling midnight 12 Ante Meridian is laughable, ignorant, and illiterate, and yes I know that you think "illiterate" means only the complete inability to read and write.
Are you linguists or not? Are you really willing to endorse the errors of ignorant time-table printers?
Your arguments make NO sense. HOW can 12 AM logically be followed by 1 AM?? 12 PM is the end of the last hour of evening. At this point we roll over into the first hour of morning, the Ante Meridian, AM.
Give it up.
Oh dear - I inadvertently opened a real can of worms with this post of mine on page 2: <<I'd much rather say 'midday', or just 'at 12 pm'. (It IS 12 pm, isn't it?! And midnight is 12 am??) >> And now we have posters calling others 'illiterate'.....
Yes, Candy.
Reversing the meanings of AM and PM qualifies as illiterate.
Is midnight the 12th hour A F T E R midday -- PM -- or is it not? (POST = after, Meridian = middday)
There is only one correct answer to that question, Candy.
Reversing the meanings of AM and PM qualifies as illiterate.
Is midnight the 12th hour A F T E R midday -- PM -- or is it not? (POST = after, Meridian = middday)
There is only one correct answer to that question, Candy.
"Since when does Bill Gates trump Latin? He must know, his software is always perfect."
It's got nothing to do with Bill Gates' or his software engineers; the convention is used in other operating systems.
"And, it amazes me that people who regularly reach back to very old languages, and claim to be linguists would so quickly, and easily dispense with the MEANINGS of AM, and PM.
What's up with that? "
Languages aren't logical either. While you're at it, why don't you just JEER at us by telling us our English language is all wrong; that we're all illiterate because its orthography and grammar is often illogical.
"Calling midnight 12 Ante Meridian is laughable, ignorant, and illiterate, and yes I know that you think "illiterate" means only the complete inability to read and write. "
Then you must qualify as ignorant and illiterate using 12.01 AM as the time one minute after your "12 PM". By your wondrous proclamation it "should" be 12.01 PM (equivalent to 0.01 AM). Why agree to the convention in part by writing "12:00:01 AM"?
This here is your contradiction:
"12:00:00 PM
-----------
12:00:01 AM (really 00:00:01) AM
12:00:59 AM"
"Since when does Bill Gates trump Latin?....Reversing the meanings of AM and PM qualifies as illiterate."
Then revert back to the old meanings of words borrowed from other languages and pronounce them "correctly" as you would in Latin.
It's got nothing to do with Bill Gates' or his software engineers; the convention is used in other operating systems.
"And, it amazes me that people who regularly reach back to very old languages, and claim to be linguists would so quickly, and easily dispense with the MEANINGS of AM, and PM.
What's up with that? "
Languages aren't logical either. While you're at it, why don't you just JEER at us by telling us our English language is all wrong; that we're all illiterate because its orthography and grammar is often illogical.
"Calling midnight 12 Ante Meridian is laughable, ignorant, and illiterate, and yes I know that you think "illiterate" means only the complete inability to read and write. "
Then you must qualify as ignorant and illiterate using 12.01 AM as the time one minute after your "12 PM". By your wondrous proclamation it "should" be 12.01 PM (equivalent to 0.01 AM). Why agree to the convention in part by writing "12:00:01 AM"?
This here is your contradiction:
"12:00:00 PM
-----------
12:00:01 AM (really 00:00:01) AM
12:00:59 AM"
"Since when does Bill Gates trump Latin?....Reversing the meanings of AM and PM qualifies as illiterate."
Then revert back to the old meanings of words borrowed from other languages and pronounce them "correctly" as you would in Latin.