The Germanic influence on French isn't just from Frankish words but from other Germanic languages and their words. Also, consider the pronunciations in French such as "eu"/"oeu"/"e" which are Germanic in origin.
what makes English Germanic?
Guest : « The Germanic influence on French isn't just from Frankish words but from other Germanic languages and their words. Also, consider the pronunciations in French such as "eu"/"oeu"/"e" which are Germanic in origin. »
L'impact des langues germaniques (mortes ou vivantes) sur le lexique français est réellement très limité.
Quant aux graphies <eu>, <œu> & <e>, pourquoi seraient-elles d'origine germanique ?
L'impact des langues germaniques (mortes ou vivantes) sur le lexique français est réellement très limité.
Quant aux graphies <eu>, <œu> & <e>, pourquoi seraient-elles d'origine germanique ?
> Ed : bienvenue sur ce forum *M*U*L*T*I*L*I*N*G*U*E* —> toutes les langues sont "étrangères" bien qu'aucune ne le soit vraiment. Mais ton esprit, lui, est toujours bien étranger à cette philosophie. Dommage.
I was only joking, "speaking foreign" is not even a grammatically correct construction but is used in Britain to mean speaking any language other than English.
I do not know of the origin of the French "eu" and "oeu" sounds, but they are rather similar to Afrikaans (Germanic, Low Franconian) dipthongs.
You can hear examples of the Afrikaans sounds here: http://web.sois.uwm.edu/AFR101/Document/index.asp?Parent=6181
I was only joking, "speaking foreign" is not even a grammatically correct construction but is used in Britain to mean speaking any language other than English.
I do not know of the origin of the French "eu" and "oeu" sounds, but they are rather similar to Afrikaans (Germanic, Low Franconian) dipthongs.
You can hear examples of the Afrikaans sounds here: http://web.sois.uwm.edu/AFR101/Document/index.asp?Parent=6181
Brennus wrote:
"The Franks and Burgundians seem to have given up Old High German completely by the middle of the 7th century in favor of the Romance vernaculars of Gaul: French, Provençal, and Rhaeto-Romantsch."
So Charlemagne speaking Germanic Frankish was probably due to his role as sovereign of both Romanophones and Germanophones and not due to him being a Frank?
"The Franks and Burgundians seem to have given up Old High German completely by the middle of the 7th century in favor of the Romance vernaculars of Gaul: French, Provençal, and Rhaeto-Romantsch."
So Charlemagne speaking Germanic Frankish was probably due to his role as sovereign of both Romanophones and Germanophones and not due to him being a Frank?
"L'impact des langues germaniques (mortes ou vivantes) sur le lexique français est réellement très limité. l'impact de la langue franque sur le français se résume à 544 mots. "
Just out of curiousity, does that number include the French coined words which used an earlier Germanic borrowing as the root? Because these words although not direct borrowings are still Germanic in their origin because of the root words from which they have sprung.
Just out of curiousity, does that number include the French coined words which used an earlier Germanic borrowing as the root? Because these words although not direct borrowings are still Germanic in their origin because of the root words from which they have sprung.
<<Quant aux graphies <eu>, <œu> & <e>, pourquoi seraient-elles d'origine germanique ?>>
Well, the Normans of France who were Germanic would have spoken the French dialects with Germanic sounding pronunciations. So it wouldn't be a stretch or a contrivance to think this would have some carryover to the French spoken today.
French today shares many vowel sounds with other continental Germanic language that aren't typically found in other Romance languages. The examples I gave were "oeu" like in "boeuf", "eu" like in "veux", and "e" like in "je". Also, "u" as in "dur" is quite common to Germanic languages, though there is at least one Romance language I can think of with this feature; but still it isn't typical of the Romance languages as a whole. Then there is the pronunciation of "r" in French like in German. If not Germanic in origin then at the very least some unexpected Germanic influence along the timeline. Why no such uvula "r" sound in other Romance languages?
I cannot prove that these features are necessarily of Germanic origin but I find it hard to believe the strong resemblance to be a mere coincidence -- especially the "oeu", "eu", "e" vowel sounds.
Well, the Normans of France who were Germanic would have spoken the French dialects with Germanic sounding pronunciations. So it wouldn't be a stretch or a contrivance to think this would have some carryover to the French spoken today.
French today shares many vowel sounds with other continental Germanic language that aren't typically found in other Romance languages. The examples I gave were "oeu" like in "boeuf", "eu" like in "veux", and "e" like in "je". Also, "u" as in "dur" is quite common to Germanic languages, though there is at least one Romance language I can think of with this feature; but still it isn't typical of the Romance languages as a whole. Then there is the pronunciation of "r" in French like in German. If not Germanic in origin then at the very least some unexpected Germanic influence along the timeline. Why no such uvula "r" sound in other Romance languages?
I cannot prove that these features are necessarily of Germanic origin but I find it hard to believe the strong resemblance to be a mere coincidence -- especially the "oeu", "eu", "e" vowel sounds.
« Guest »,
On retrouve le son [y] en occitan, une langue non-germanique et très peu germanisée. L'occitan est un 'cousin' du français : leurs familles linguistiques sont sœurs (Oc & Oïl).
L'apparition du [R] est un gallicisme — c'est-à-dire propre à la langue française (pas gauloise ni celtique) — et sa généralisation un phénomène lent et tardif en France (de ~ Louis XIV à nos jours) et qui s'est propagé outre Rhin sans s'y être jamais imposé vraiment.
L'arrivée des Vikings en Neustrie (et plus généralement dans les bassins fluviaux de la France septentrionale) est loin d'être la seule invasion germanique sur le territoire de Francie occidentale : les envahisseurs ont investi de vastes territoires et peu de régions furent épargnées. Ceci dit les latinophones / romanophones ont partout supplanté les germanophones au niveau linguistique. Ce sont donc ces derniers (pris collectivement) qui ont dû s'efforcer de s'approprier un héritage linguistique étranger, et non l'inverse — même si bien sûr les échanges lexicaux se sont fait dans les deux sens.
Il est plus difficile d'être tranché sur l'apparition et le développement de phonèmes tels que [2], [9] ou [@] (par exemple), quelles que soient leurs graphies en diachronie. Mais voici quelques pistes.
Pour le cas de [@], on considère que c'est (entre autres éventualités) une altération impériale (IIIe s.) de l'orolatin [u] en position finale et non tonique : les suffixes <aticum> (accusatif) initialement prononcés [atiku] deviennent [atik@]. Donc rien à voir avec les Normands dans ce cas-là.
Si tu prends le latin <hora>, son descendant en orolatin de Gaule septentrionale est [ora] jusqu’au Ve s. puis [oUra] du VIe au XIe. Il faut attendre le XIIe s. pour que le 1er élément diphtongue s’antériorise : [eUra]. Puis tout s’accélère (toujours au XIIe s.) : [eU_^ra] —> [2U_^ra] —> [2ra] —> [2r@]. Ce n’est qu’au XVIe s. (moyen français) qu’on trouve [9r@] — à comparer avec le français moderne [9R] / [9R@] = <heure>.
Tu vois donc, dans ce cas précis, que l’apparition de [9] en moyen français est liée à l’ouverture du [2] de l’ancien français, lui-même issu d’une diphtongue dont la voyelle syllabique fut postérieure, puis antérieure et enfin centrale : [eU_^] —> [2U_^] —> [2] —> [9]. Donc c’est assez compliqué et, a priori, ça ne semble pas lié avec la venue des Scandinaves (assauts entre 800 et 900) ou leur établissement dans le littoral septentrional de la Francie occidentale (colonisation entre 900 et 950).
D’autant que les Varègues ont d’abord appris les variantes de l’ancien normand avant de ‘se lancer’ dans l’ancien français. Des langues d’Oïl autres que l’ancien français ont pu être plus directement et/ou largement impactées par les anciennes langues scandinaves.
On retrouve le son [y] en occitan, une langue non-germanique et très peu germanisée. L'occitan est un 'cousin' du français : leurs familles linguistiques sont sœurs (Oc & Oïl).
L'apparition du [R] est un gallicisme — c'est-à-dire propre à la langue française (pas gauloise ni celtique) — et sa généralisation un phénomène lent et tardif en France (de ~ Louis XIV à nos jours) et qui s'est propagé outre Rhin sans s'y être jamais imposé vraiment.
L'arrivée des Vikings en Neustrie (et plus généralement dans les bassins fluviaux de la France septentrionale) est loin d'être la seule invasion germanique sur le territoire de Francie occidentale : les envahisseurs ont investi de vastes territoires et peu de régions furent épargnées. Ceci dit les latinophones / romanophones ont partout supplanté les germanophones au niveau linguistique. Ce sont donc ces derniers (pris collectivement) qui ont dû s'efforcer de s'approprier un héritage linguistique étranger, et non l'inverse — même si bien sûr les échanges lexicaux se sont fait dans les deux sens.
Il est plus difficile d'être tranché sur l'apparition et le développement de phonèmes tels que [2], [9] ou [@] (par exemple), quelles que soient leurs graphies en diachronie. Mais voici quelques pistes.
Pour le cas de [@], on considère que c'est (entre autres éventualités) une altération impériale (IIIe s.) de l'orolatin [u] en position finale et non tonique : les suffixes <aticum> (accusatif) initialement prononcés [atiku] deviennent [atik@]. Donc rien à voir avec les Normands dans ce cas-là.
Si tu prends le latin <hora>, son descendant en orolatin de Gaule septentrionale est [ora] jusqu’au Ve s. puis [oUra] du VIe au XIe. Il faut attendre le XIIe s. pour que le 1er élément diphtongue s’antériorise : [eUra]. Puis tout s’accélère (toujours au XIIe s.) : [eU_^ra] —> [2U_^ra] —> [2ra] —> [2r@]. Ce n’est qu’au XVIe s. (moyen français) qu’on trouve [9r@] — à comparer avec le français moderne [9R] / [9R@] = <heure>.
Tu vois donc, dans ce cas précis, que l’apparition de [9] en moyen français est liée à l’ouverture du [2] de l’ancien français, lui-même issu d’une diphtongue dont la voyelle syllabique fut postérieure, puis antérieure et enfin centrale : [eU_^] —> [2U_^] —> [2] —> [9]. Donc c’est assez compliqué et, a priori, ça ne semble pas lié avec la venue des Scandinaves (assauts entre 800 et 900) ou leur établissement dans le littoral septentrional de la Francie occidentale (colonisation entre 900 et 950).
D’autant que les Varègues ont d’abord appris les variantes de l’ancien normand avant de ‘se lancer’ dans l’ancien français. Des langues d’Oïl autres que l’ancien français ont pu être plus directement et/ou largement impactées par les anciennes langues scandinaves.
ERRATUM : Si tu prends le latin <hora>, son descendant en orolatin de Gaule septentrionale est [ora] jusqu’au Ve s. puis [oU_^ra] du VIe au XIe.
" Then there is the pronunciation of "r" in French like in German. If not Germanic in origin then at the very least some unexpected Germanic influence along the timeline. Why no such uvula "r" sound in other Romance languages? "
the "uvular" r arrived very recently in French. Even my grandmother used to speak with a rolled "r". A lot of old people in the countryside don't use the "uvular r". I don't know why that pronouciation has changed, but it is certainly not due to the germanic people, otherwise the uvular "r" would have been the norm since the fall of Roman empire.
More generally I think it is untrue to suppose that french should be mush more "germanized than other romance languages; for the simple reason that the Germanic invasion had concerned ALL parts of the Roman empire, not just France. Don't forget Wisigoths and Vandals in Spain, Lombards in Italy, and later Vikings in Sicily... Most kingdoms in southern Europe were founded and settled by germanic tribes.
AS for the "r". I heard some portuguese accents pronounce it as uvular "r too, but since they are Portuguese nobody exptect or think them to be related to a germanic people. But I don't know why, some people continue to associate France with germanic countries...
the "uvular" r arrived very recently in French. Even my grandmother used to speak with a rolled "r". A lot of old people in the countryside don't use the "uvular r". I don't know why that pronouciation has changed, but it is certainly not due to the germanic people, otherwise the uvular "r" would have been the norm since the fall of Roman empire.
More generally I think it is untrue to suppose that french should be mush more "germanized than other romance languages; for the simple reason that the Germanic invasion had concerned ALL parts of the Roman empire, not just France. Don't forget Wisigoths and Vandals in Spain, Lombards in Italy, and later Vikings in Sicily... Most kingdoms in southern Europe were founded and settled by germanic tribes.
AS for the "r". I heard some portuguese accents pronounce it as uvular "r too, but since they are Portuguese nobody exptect or think them to be related to a germanic people. But I don't know why, some people continue to associate France with germanic countries...
My father from the South of France also pronounces a tongue-rolled "r" like your grandmother. My mother has the uvular "r" of Northern France. They are both French so I speak the language but I've never tried to write in it.
My father's pronunciations and timbre overall sound more Latin-like especially his tongued "r" which sounds typically Romantic like in Latin, Italian, Spanish, etc. While my mother's sounds more Germanic-like, but not as Germanic sounding as say the French-Alsatians. So I can definitely hear a distinction and the best way I can describe it is in degrees of "Latiness" and "Germanicness". I've heard the same said of accents of Northern Italians compared with Southern Italians.
<<I do not know of the origin of the French "eu" and "oeu" sounds, but they are rather similar to Afrikaans (Germanic, Low Franconian) dipthongs.
You can hear examples of the Afrikaans sounds here: http://web.sois.uwm.edu/AFR101/Document/index.asp?Parent=6181>>
I had a listen to the Afrikaans vowel sounds and they all sounded diphthonged, nothing like the French vowels I was questioning. The French "eu" as in "veux" is effectively the German "ö", a simple monophthong. I don't know how the vowel sound of "heure" and "boeuf" is written in German. German also appears to have the French "e" sound at the end of words as accentuated in Southern French accents e.g. lentEment. (the E is normally silent in Northern France).
I also hear such vowel sounds in Scandinavian languages but I don't know how they write them. So I can draw parallels between French and other Germanic languages that I cannot with other Romance languages.
Greg wrote about the history of the transition of diphthongs in French to the "eu"-type vowels of today. All I can surmise is that this is where a Germanic influence served as a catalyst or initiator for these vowels to arise. That Germanic influence may have been Norman, maybe Frankish, Visigoth, maybe even Celtic?, etc...
I'm the Guest who started the "e", "eu", "oeu" discussion.
My father's pronunciations and timbre overall sound more Latin-like especially his tongued "r" which sounds typically Romantic like in Latin, Italian, Spanish, etc. While my mother's sounds more Germanic-like, but not as Germanic sounding as say the French-Alsatians. So I can definitely hear a distinction and the best way I can describe it is in degrees of "Latiness" and "Germanicness". I've heard the same said of accents of Northern Italians compared with Southern Italians.
<<I do not know of the origin of the French "eu" and "oeu" sounds, but they are rather similar to Afrikaans (Germanic, Low Franconian) dipthongs.
You can hear examples of the Afrikaans sounds here: http://web.sois.uwm.edu/AFR101/Document/index.asp?Parent=6181>>
I had a listen to the Afrikaans vowel sounds and they all sounded diphthonged, nothing like the French vowels I was questioning. The French "eu" as in "veux" is effectively the German "ö", a simple monophthong. I don't know how the vowel sound of "heure" and "boeuf" is written in German. German also appears to have the French "e" sound at the end of words as accentuated in Southern French accents e.g. lentEment. (the E is normally silent in Northern France).
I also hear such vowel sounds in Scandinavian languages but I don't know how they write them. So I can draw parallels between French and other Germanic languages that I cannot with other Romance languages.
Greg wrote about the history of the transition of diphthongs in French to the "eu"-type vowels of today. All I can surmise is that this is where a Germanic influence served as a catalyst or initiator for these vowels to arise. That Germanic influence may have been Norman, maybe Frankish, Visigoth, maybe even Celtic?, etc...
I'm the Guest who started the "e", "eu", "oeu" discussion.
The sound french "e" and "eu" exist in other romance languages, in Catalan for exemple:
for exemple "the father" is "el pare" but the pronounciation has nothing to do with the castillian one "el padre" but sounds like french sound "eu".
("eul pareu", not "èl paré").
I don't know for romanian or other dialects from Italy, but it is possible that this sound exist also in those languages.
for exemple "the father" is "el pare" but the pronounciation has nothing to do with the castillian one "el padre" but sounds like french sound "eu".
("eul pareu", not "èl paré").
I don't know for romanian or other dialects from Italy, but it is possible that this sound exist also in those languages.
««AS for the "r". I heard some portuguese accents pronounce it as uvular "r too, but since they are Portuguese nobody exptect or think them to be related to a germanic people.»»
You think a different way and explore other possibilities when you look at maps. You can have an idea of where people came from and make relationships. It is a lot more interesting to try and find similarities in modern languages that could have been a result of migrations.
Who was there in the past:
http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapgermanic.htm
Who is there today:
http://www.chatasunday.sk/img/mapa_europa.jpg
You think a different way and explore other possibilities when you look at maps. You can have an idea of where people came from and make relationships. It is a lot more interesting to try and find similarities in modern languages that could have been a result of migrations.
Who was there in the past:
http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapgermanic.htm
Who is there today:
http://www.chatasunday.sk/img/mapa_europa.jpg
> You can hear examples of the Afrikaans sounds here: http://web.sois.uwm.edu/AFR101/Document/index.asp?Parent=6181>>
>I had a listen to the Afrikaans vowel sounds and they all sounded diphthonged, nothing like the French vowels I was questioning. The French "eu" as in "veux" is effectively the German "ö", a simple monophthong. I don't know how the vowel sound of "heure" and "boeuf" is written in German. German also appears to have the French "e" sound at the end of words as accentuated in Southern French accents e.g. lentEment. (the E is normally silent in Northern France).
They sounded similar to me but I must admit I know little of French so I'll bow to someone with a better knowledge of the language.
>I had a listen to the Afrikaans vowel sounds and they all sounded diphthonged, nothing like the French vowels I was questioning. The French "eu" as in "veux" is effectively the German "ö", a simple monophthong. I don't know how the vowel sound of "heure" and "boeuf" is written in German. German also appears to have the French "e" sound at the end of words as accentuated in Southern French accents e.g. lentEment. (the E is normally silent in Northern France).
They sounded similar to me but I must admit I know little of French so I'll bow to someone with a better knowledge of the language.
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