What does CAPITALISM mean to you? Do you like it or not?

Guest II   Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:40 am GMT
Jasper, that artcile quotes the discontent of complacent burghers with identity issues. Besides, life in East Germany was considerably better than life in Poland or Russia, although this kind of nostalgia exists in all ex-communist countries. If their families were not targeted by the state's repressions and held good jobs, of course they'll try to defend their past lifestyle and fantisize about "a simpler time."

Here are two excerpts from the article that explain these sentiments:

"Rose-tinted memories are stronger than the statistics about people trying to escape and applications for exit visas, and even stronger than the files about killings at the Wall and unjust political sentences," says historian Wolle."

and

"This brings up an old question once again: Did a real life exist in the midst of a sham? Downplaying the dictatorship is seen as the price people pay to preserve their self-respect. "People are defending their own lives," writes political scientist Schroeder, describing the tragedy of a divided country."

I don't believe that the downplaying is something that a morally conscious citizen should allow himself.
Guest II   Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:48 am GMT
"capitalism and communism are two extremes that have to be eradicated, look at the paranoid and brainwashed americans feeling morbidly threaten by everything that sounds communist. They are scared to death, and they were told to get scared, the same as the communists were told to be scared by imperialism capitalism. Best way is the central wing the Socialists or the best way is a N E W S Y S T E M. "

This is exactly the kind of rhetoric that should be left in the college campus. Socilism is a leftist ideology. It's about redistributing wealth. If you think America is in the position to redistribute it (from whom to whom?), then vote accordingly.
K. T.   Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:51 am GMT
I read the Gulag Archipelago (not when it came out, of course) and it made an impression on me, but I think "Cancer Ward" made a bigger impression.
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Jasper,
Are the banks naughty evil people? I don't think the banks came to people and forced them to take out loans and buy houses. Oh sure, I get those annoying ads to get a loan from a certain bank, but I have a little bit of self-control (not a lot, but enough to avoid going to the bank so I can live in Snooty Poots Point, the Gated Select Community for Professional.

Don't give in to ads from banks! Don't buy a big jacked-up pickup truck, a party boat! Don't hire people to decorate your house for Christmas if you can't afford your mortgage!

I don't have the empathy you want and probably being frugal will net me little. I remember a Chinese film where the "hero" lost his home because of his gambling habit. In the end, that was "good" because he had nothing when the Communists came in-or the social realists. I think the person who got his home ended up badly. It was a good film. Most serious, semi-recent Chinese films are thought-provoking.
KGB   Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:01 am GMT
"life in East Germany was considerably better than life in Poland or Russia"

incorrect

Polish people under communism, had more freedom than any other communist state, much more freedom than in East Germany. One big contribution towards freedom under polish dictatorship was the ex-polish Pope John Paul II or Karol Wojtyła. His influence was massive, and Poland was almost a free country, if not under Soviet power.

Romania had the most Draconic system, a communist country that was independent from the Soviet power.

East Germany was a puppet state, 100% under Soviet Control, because of the Berlin Wall being the psychological divide between West and East.
Post a reply   Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:11 am GMT
"Socilism is a leftist ideology. It's about redistributing wealth. If you think America is in the position to redistribute it (from whom to whom?), then vote accordingly. "

Take the money by extra-taxing the multi-multi-millionaires, what the hell are they doing with so much money? what for? only greed!
Super-tax the mega-rich and put the money into free health-care not bloody weapons and war.

This is the solution because anyway they are voluntarily donating big money to charities, so why not follow this trend and Super-tax them big time, so the government does the charity job more efficiently.
guest   Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:27 am GMT
yeah, raise the taxes, and then the rich would simply go to other countries to make their millions *eye roll*

and KGB, I think he meant that East Germany was better off materially, which it was
Jasper   Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:33 am GMT
"Are the banks naughty evil people? I don't think the banks came to people and forced them to take out loans and buy houses"

KT, we have already discussed the narcissistic psychology of the bankers that bordered on sociopathy. While the banks did not FORCE people to take out the loans, they begged, cajoled, lied, and swindled the people to do so, in order to get their origination fees, document fees, and bonuses.

Yes, I say "swindled"! You did not ask me to tell you what they did to the Mexicans, but I'll do so if you want.
K. T.   Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:12 am GMT
If my neighbour begs me to buy a white elephant bull and says that he will give me a load of hay with the deal, I am still not going to buy the elephant.

Will my neighbour help me when the elephant goes on a rampage when I cannot afford the insurance, the vet fees and the fence to contain it? No. Bankers are not even your neighbour. Rent until you can buy. Don't start a business until you have thoroughly investigated what kind of market there is for your product.
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Why shouldn't mega-rich donate where they want? Did they earn the money? Are all people equal? Yes, if we view them as "souls", but each of us has different opportunities and different skills. The government is not Jesus. The government doesn't need to force us to love our neighbour (even the elephant-pawning one), people should choose to help others willingly-not through taxes.

Have you seen what cheapskates some "politicians" are? Do you know what charities your president or your senator supports?

I don't need the government to tell me what to do most of the time. I am not a child. I know poor people need help. Dag nab it Jasper.
Shuimo   Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:06 pm GMT
What a hilarious scene of comments!:-)

Shuimo has taken quite some time specially to read through all our lovely Antimooners' replies above to my elusive question!

I was actually expecting you guys to demonstrate intelligence and/or horizon in yr myriad replies, but few of you managed to do that!:-(

But many of you did manage to be either marvelous mumblers of lamenting how evil Communist Soviet had been or superficial singers of extolling how marvelous Capitalist US/UK are! :-(

Shuimo must scold you severely: you almost all are brainwashed and blinded by yr tunnel vision due to capitalist propaganda without yr realizing it! Jasper and the devil's advocate seem to be the rare few exceptions who have managed somehow to see beyond thick fog of capitalist propaganda!O(∩_∩)O

Shuimo surely has the final say on this matter just because I live in Capitalist + Communism China, a unique place nowhere else in the world cud match!
Shuimo   Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:26 pm GMT
Damian in Edinburgh Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:05 pm GMT
I'm happy to live in a country where you can stand on a podium in a public place specifically allocated for the purpose and say just what you like about anything under the sun, so long as it is not deliberately slanderous to any named individuals.

Without fear and favour you can denounce the Government of the day, describe the Prime Minister as the Devil Personified, and refer to The Queen and the Monarchy in the most irreverent way and call for their banishment to some remote Scottish island where they can feed on seaweed and cockles.

It would be your perfect right to do so. Free speech is very precious in a true democracy, and this has been the case in this country for over a thousand years, with only a few blips here and there over the centuries.

Henry Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:03 pm GMT
<Without fear and favour you can denounce the Government of the day, describe the Prime Minister as the Devil Personified, and refer to The Queen and the Monarchy in the most irreverent way and call for their banishment to some remote Scottish island where they can feed on seaweed and cockles. >

Yes, the sheep are allowed to baa what they want while they're sheared. It makes you feel better.


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Henry has the best comment in this thread regarding freedom of speech worshipped like mad by some of our speech-freedom-fundamentalist!


>>We just can't imagine that anybody would really wish to have their lives run for them by Big Bro State! Toeing any Party Line would be a total nightmare. <<
What has that got to do with capitalism?


>>pragmatic Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:11 pm GMT
I am a supporter of capitalism, for the time being at least, since I am rich and I don't want to pay a lot of taxes or relinquish my wealth. If however something should happen, if my investments fail catastrophically, feel free to sign me up for communism. Then, once I get back up on my feet, time for some more capitalism. <<

What a shameless opportunist you are!:-(


>>Rothbardian Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:49 pm GMT
Communism is the ultimate freedom to be expropriated, humiliated, tortured, pushed about and eventually killed. Even the so-called "voluntary communism" has been all but abandoned by its erstwhile supporters - see the privatization of the majority of kibbutzim in Israel. Free market anarchism will hopefully displace the lukewarm intrusive statism of most of today's world. <<
That former communist states failed doesn't mean that their version of communism they practiced is the right path of communism!

Capitalism doesn't eclipse in any way in practicing what you accuse communism was guilty of! Think of the Nazi Germany and US in cold war and 19th century little England under Dickens!
Shuimo   Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:52 pm GMT
Rothbardian Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:29 am GMT
Jasper - the present American-style "capitalism" is actually corporatism, full of regulations and statist intrusions, starting from the income tax, compulsory social security, job licensing and anti-trust regulations, and ending with the feature that is perhaps most devastating for the smooth functioning of financial markets - namely, central planning of the money supply and interest rates by the FED, which has ushered in boom-bust cycles for the last 80 years or so (I recommend reading von Mises and von Hayek on business cycles). Get rid of fractional reserve banking and creating money out of thin air to redistribute wealth from the totality of private property owners to the political-banking cartel, get rid of all the statist intrusions into free exchange of property titles introduced in the 20th century by the big business united with big politics (to get rid of competition from the middle-class entrepreneurs), and you will have a real and healthy form of capitalism again. Nothing else works and nothing else is needed.
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Doesn't yr condemnation of the USA also apply to Communist China? Hhahah
Or perhaps the USA is just a clumsy copier of China's examples? :-)



>>K. T. Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:30 am GMT
Jasper,

I'm a little sad that you would buy some of this communism stuff. I have been in a couple of communist countries and our life in the States is much better.

What about human rights and religious freedom? I don't even want to toy with communism like the French seem to do at times. I don't mind the "sharing" part, but I don't think it encourages innovation and acheivement except maybe in sports...<<

What communist countries are you referring to?

Plz never ever take failed former eastern European communist countries to be the sample of what COMMUNISM is or should be!

You've surely been to my Communist China?!
Why you guys turn blind eye to booming China under Communist ideology?

HR card is utterly utterly irrelevant to capitalism vs communism distinction, if yr mind can be broadened to take things at their heart!


>>>Robin Michael Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:59 am GMT
America used to describe itself as being a 'Young Country' and that used to be the excuse for all sorts of things that were not perfect. Now there is a sense in which China is a 'Young Country'. A country that is being re-born. <<<
Hmmm, good observation!
China is both young and old! It is just recapturing its former dominant glory!


>>Damian in Edinburgh Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:46 am GMT
Communism had sucked all the initiative and enterprise out of the people, and a blind adherence to a strict Muscovite ideology had obviously left wounds which were taking a very long time to heal. Even now it hasn't been totally dismantled, as official corruption is still in evidence in Romania it seems, and a friend of mine who went to Bulgaria last year )<<<

Fake communism as in eastern European countries cud be what you described!
If you see what is happening in China, think again!


>>Rothbardian Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:09 am GMT
PS. What Damian said is exactly right - communism cannot be shaken off just by legal reintroduction of market economy - it poisons people's mentality and distorts their incentive structure for many generations. We still do not know how many generations have to come and go in order to shake off the mental after-effects of communism in its totality - some of the post-communist countries have already become quite enterprising, but none of them is exactly 19th century America. <<

Just remind you: China is rewriting the reputation of communism, which has been retarnished to such as extent that you narrowed-minded sort of folks just unsuspectingly drew = btw USSR (and its satellite eastern European countries) and communism!
Shuimo   Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:08 pm GMT
>>question? Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:53 pm GMT
I in no way support communism, but can someone please explain to me why all problems in current and former communist countries are attributed to communism?

How can you explain the fact that there are just as many poor countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America that are capitalist? Is this poverty attributable to capitalism?

Damian, your description of Romania sounds quite similar to some things I've seen in Mexico, yet Mexico is capitalist and has been for most of its history. Is it poor because of capitalism?

This is a serious question, please answer it, I want to know your opinion. <<

Good questioning!:-)
Shuimo cud give you a very straightforward answer!
Because capitalist-owned media fears communism and leaves no stone unturned to defame and blacken communism, whereby former communist countries fit as perfect cannon for attack!



>>Guest Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:57 pm GMT
K. T., there never was any communism in USSR or China or elsewhere. It was called real-socialism, meaning the socialism that could exist in reality. The communist parties were trying to lead the society towards communism, which is supposed to be a better type of society. Read Marx. Marx never predicted that communism could exist in the non-industrial countries like feudal China or Russia, communism was supposed to emerge spontaneously in the most industrially developed countries, namely UK and USA. That is going to happen in the next decades. <<

Yes! China can't claim to be a full holder of COMMUNISM!
But the CPC absolutely holds the ideology of communism most dearly and China retains some key elements and characteristics that are supposed to and should be regarded as communist in an economic sense!



>>Guest II Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:24 pm GMT
Yes, as the Guest above me explains, communism has always been and always will be an empty promise of a better life.

What did the Soviet soon-to-be yet never was communism result in? Deaths and ruined lives.

China is currently a market economy under the rule of a government that retains all the worst practices of communist regimes, mainly the repression of free thought, criminal use of force against dissenting opinion, political propaganda, promotion of false patriotism, militaristic buildup, and god knows what else.

Capitalism is primarily a system that supports individual initiative and innovation. No matter what anyone says, it is the most humane economic system, granted, of course, that the government established a framework within which it is to function. <<

Yr logic and terms can't be more muddy!
what you condemn China as guilty of just suggests that there is an alternative system of society and way of life that combine both CAPITALISM and COMMUNISM most charmingly!

BTW: China today for the first time in the past 50 years has executed a European citizen! Which has the full support of the Chinese people, Shuimo included! So sad to see Western media making such fuss over such triviality!;-(
K. T.   Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:11 pm GMT
Yes, I have been to China. I also read how terribly the PRC treated people who were Christians (Catholic and otherwise). I have also heard about the treatment of people who had other (non-Christian) beliefs.
Shuimo   Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:16 pm GMT
K. T. Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:11 pm GMT
Yes, I have been to China. I also read how terribly the PRC treated people who were Christians (Catholic and otherwise). I have also heard about the treatment of people who had other (non-Christian) beliefs.
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Yr money wasn't spent worthily!
You have eyes and you looked, but you didn't see! Pity thing!
Guest II   Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:25 pm GMT
Shuimo, you seem to have a problem with processing information and replying in a coherent manner. All you did was quoting someone and then answering them with vaunting remarks regarding China's glory. As George Bernard Shaw once said, "patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy."

"Just remind you: China is rewriting the reputation of communism"

Yeah right! As a Westerner, I see a China that adopted the Western economic models but made little progress toward realizing the most basic and fundamental Western value around which a successful economy is build -- respect for individual human life.

I hope other forumers will see your ignorance and be thankful that they live in countries that uphold basic human rights and treat their citizens not as a collective mass of flesh.