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Spanish is the most beautiful of all languages
Hi Mella,
Thanks for the link.
Can you tell me if this Brazillian grammar includes all the regional changes that appear today in Brazil?
Can you tell me if Brazillian people are following these rules?
I am not being sarchastic. I am being seriously curious.
Counterexample: leismo, loismo and laismo are well known phenomena in Spain. No one is trying to change the grammar though. And no one is claiming that they are speaking a different language than Spanish.
In many regions of Latinamerica there are oral variants of Spanish. They are accepted by everybody. No one is claiming to change the grammar.
My point is, I don't pretend (don't even desire) BrPt being identical to EuPt on the oral level, just expressing my opinion that the written language should remain a common reference to both countries. If it happens in English, Spanish, German and French, why should it be so difficult in Portuguese?
Sergio, este asunto del portugués suena interesante y sinceramente desconocia que estuviera sucediendo lo que cuentas. Siempre pense que las diferencias eran meramente de semántica o sintaxis no de gramática. Pero podrias darme un ejemplo de ello si tienes a mano alguno por favor ? Gracias.
Hola Aldvm,
Ahora mismo estoy buscando ejemplos concretos, pero básicamente se trata de algo del estilo de:
español correcto: voy a visitarla
español "evolucionando": voy a visitar ella
español correcto: yo voy, tú vas
español "evolucionando": yo voy, tú va
Después hay la tendencia a escribir "como se pronuncian" muchas palabras, sin atender el hecho de que el portugués no es una lengua cien por ciento fonética. Otra vez, extrapolado al español:
español correcto: ¿tú vas a comer?
español "evolucionando": ¿tú va a comé?
Entonces, mi necedad con este tema, es que a partir de un conocimiento deficiente de las reglas gramaticales, lo que muchos quieren es crear una nueva gramática, para que ahora esto se vuelva la forma correcta de escribir. Muy bien, pero el problema es que cada región tiene sus propias variantes, por lo que no hay consistencia. En mi opinión (al final, yo ni soy portugués ni brasileño), si todo esto surgió por una deficiente enseñanza y/o cuidado de la lengua portuguesa, ¿seguirán al pie de la letra una nueva gramática si es que se llegan a poner de acuerdo en crear tal?
Gracias Sergio, ya veo.
En el segundo caso es como si los cubanos o argentinos decidieran que se escribe 'señol' y no 'señor' o 'chamar' y no 'llamar'. Curioso.
Sabes, hace mucho tiempo, cuando supe de la existencia de la RAEL me molestaba sobremanera porque pensaba que por qué otros me iban a decir como hablar o qué era o no correcto, pero despues comprendi el importantisimo papel que juega la organizacion para controlar en lo posible el caos linguistico que puede generar tantos hablantes de un mismo idioma y realmente me alegro que exista.
Conoces si algun otro idioma tiene una academia similar ? Nunca he oido de otra.
''Can you tell me if Brazillian people are following these rules? ''
Yes, it's a descriptive grammar so Brazilian people are following these rules:
old grammar: eu sou, tu és, ele é, nós somos, vós sois, eles são
new grammar: eu sou, você é, ele é, a gente é, vocês são, eles são
it does not make any sense to use 17th century grammar
Even Spanish people are modernizing their grammar, you get rid of a nice tense (Future Subjunctive) that is still used in Portuguese (both Continental and Brazilian). If you were to follow the rules, you would still be using this nice tense and wouldn't let it go away.
''just expressing my opinion that the written language should remain a common reference to both countries. If it happens in English, Spanish, German and French, why should it be so difficult in Portuguese? ''
US English and UK English, and
Brazilian Portuguese and Continental Portuguese
have different spelling, and many grammar differences.
Spanish may be more ''unified'' because there are many countries where the language is spoken, and there is no official co-standard, there is only one standard.
In case of US/UK English, and Brazilian/Continental Portuguese we have
1. different spelling
2. different standards
(The police are -not acceptable in the US, acceptable in the UK
I just saw - acceptable in the US, not acceptable in the UK
summer and fall - acceptable in the US, not acceptable in the UK
if I was you - acceptable in the UK, not acceptable in the US
I have gotten - acceptable in the US, not acceptable in the UK
eu não quero te falar - acceptable in Brazil, not acceptable in Portugal
eu amo você - acceptable in Brazil, not acceptable in Portugal
comprei isso para si - acceptable in Portugal, not acceptable in Brazil
se eu fosse a ti - acceptable in Portugal, not acceptable in Brazil
se eu fosse você - acceptable in Brazil, not acceptable in Portugal)
Spanish, German and French have only one standard.
English and Portuguese have two.
I believe this is because USA and Brazil are vast countries with 80% of all speakers of English/Portuguese, therefore more linguistic independence.
''just expressing my opinion that the written language should remain a common reference to both countries. If it happens in English, Spanish, German and French, why should it be so difficult in Portuguese?''
Well, I've been to Argentina, and the written language there is NOTHING like Castillian Spanish. VOS and is used, never TU. And VOSOTROS is never used, only USTEDES. Present perfect and sintactic future are OBSOLETE there, they use SIMPLE PAST instead, and ir + a+ infinitive.
And these features are used in the written language as well, so would you stop saying ''all Spanish countries are using Madrid rules''
it is not true.
Currently, I am enjoying an Argentinian soap opera SOS MI VIDA,
and it is in a language much more beautiful than Continental Spanish, it has the melody, something that Continental Spanish lacks.
Continental Spanish is harsh, it reflects the deserts life you got there.
Some differences
Brazil [br]
Portugal [pt]
I love you
[br] eu amo você = eu te amo = eu lhe amo
[pt] amo-te
I won't tell you
[br] eu não vou te falar = eu não vou te dizer
[pt] não te vou dizer = não vou dizer-te
I am listening to you
[br] eu estou te escutando = eu estou escutando você
[pt] estou-te a escutar = estou a escutar-te
I'll be home in 50 minutes, at 10.15
[br]Eu chego em casa em cinqüenta minutos, às dez e quinze.
[pt]Chego a casa daqui a cinquenta minutos, às dez e um quarto.
I'm not gonna invite your brother.
[br] Seu irmão, eu não convido não.
[pt] Ao teu irmão, eu não o convido.
Your cellphone is brown
[br]Seu celular é marrom.
[pt] O teu telemóvel é castanho.
Take care of your kids.
[br] Cuidem dos filhos de vocês = Cuidem de seus filhos.
[pt] Cuidem dos vossos filhos.
If I were you, I wouldn't do it
[br] Se eu fosse você, eu não faria isso
[pt] Se eu fosse a ti, não o fazia
I would like to know
[br] Eu gostaria de saber
[pt] Eu gostava de saber
I've been hit by surprise
[br] Eu fui pego de surpresa.
[pt] Fui pegado/apanhado de surpresa.
You're surprized?
[br] Você está surpreso?
[pt] Estás supreendido?
Between you and me
[br] Entre você e eu.
[pt] Entre si/ti e mim.
Bye!
[br] Tchau!
[pt] Adeus!
Mella and Thaïs: you two write so much nonsense!
Your knowledge of European Portuguese is a disgrace!!!
Stop inventing or I can not stop laughing.
I did not know there was only one grammar book in Brazil. What did Brazilians do to the ones they use in school?
Fui pegado.... com uma pégada?
<<Well, I've been to Argentina, and the written language there is NOTHING like Castillian Spanish. VOS and is used, never TU. And VOSOTROS is never used, only USTEDES. Present perfect and sintactic future are OBSOLETE there, they use SIMPLE PAST instead, and ir + a+ infinitive. And these features are used in the written language as well, so would you stop saying ''all Spanish countries are using Madrid rules'' >>
'Vos' comes from latin, it was not made up by the Argentinians and they use 'usted' too as formal. Even 'vos' is used in countries like Bolivia, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Uruguay and Venezuela. In Spain was used in antique times but now it's considered arcaic.
>>>Well, I've been to Argentina, and the written language there is NOTHING like Castillian Spanish.
Gordon, Spanish being my mother thongue, I would tell you: let's not exagerate.
>>>VOS and is used, never TU. And VOSOTROS is never used, only USTEDES. Present perfect and sintactic future are OBSOLETE there,
I agree with you, but this does not make a whole new grammar at all. In certain parts of Mexico, VOS is also used. No one cries that they speak a different language!!!
>>>they use SIMPLE PAST instead, and ir + a+ infinitive.
And these features are used in the written language as well, so would you stop saying ''all Spanish countries are using Madrid rules''
Yes, we use the simple past when it needs to be used, but when it is also valid to use the compound past as well. It is matter of choise in this specific case. They are thus perfectly valid in the written language!!!
The same is true of the choise between simple future and the periphrastic future. Again, this is still within the frame of the formal Spanish grammar!!
By the way, I have never stated that we speak using Madrid rules, and don't want to either. But still, it remains the same language!!!!
Hi Mella,
>>Yes, it's a descriptive grammar so Brazilian people are following these rules:
old grammar: eu sou, tu és, ele é, nós somos, vós sois, eles são
new grammar: eu sou, você é, ele é, a gente é, vocês são, eles são
So, you are basically saying that choosing the você form does change the grammar?.... I think you are the one who needs help in learning the concept of grammar. In Spanish, using "ustedes" instead of "vosotros" doesn't neglect the existence of "vosotros", it is a matter of a valid choice, not a new grammar.
Future subjunctive has definitely fallen in disuse, being nowadays constrained to juridic language, which is really a pity. But it still exists. The less usage is by the way parallel in Spain and Latin America.
>eu não quero te falar - acceptable in Brazil, not acceptable in Portugal
eu amo você - acceptable in Brazil, not acceptable in Portugal
comprei isso para si - acceptable in Portugal, not acceptable in Brazil
se eu fosse a ti - acceptable in Portugal, not acceptable in Brazil
se eu fosse você - acceptable in Brazil, not acceptable in Portugal)
Just to be sure here. Gringo, Joey.... what do you mean? are these forms grammatically valid, but not preferred or are they considered errors in EuPt?
Hi Thaïs, most of your samples were just showing the pronoun você insted of "tu", a matter of which I expressed my opinion above. Again, it seems that some of your samples (asumming that you are presenting correct sentences in EuPt) express alternative valid ways of constructing a sentence in Pt, but let's wait to Gringo and other Portugueses to corroborate this.
Meanwhile, though a bit odd, these alternatives exist in Spanish as well, and they are a heritage from vulgar Latin forms:
1) Si tuviera dinero, lo compraría (subjunctive + conditional)
2) Si tuviera dinero, lo compraba (subjunctive + imperfect)
3) Si tenía dinero, lo compraba (the least frequent, still grammatically valid: imperfect + imperfect)
It is still Spanish.
But anyway, my whole respects to the Portuguese language (no matter the country in which it is spoken) because it is a beautiful language, which a huge capacity of expression.
Aldvm,
Sé que estas instituciones reguladoras de la lengua existen en Cataluña, Dinamarca, Suecia, Noruega, Holanda y Alemania, y creo que también en Francia, Italia y Portugal, aunque aquí no estoy seguro. En Inglaterra no lo sé.
Sorry,
The above post was mine. I forgot to sign it.
1) Si tuviera/tuviese dinero, lo compraría (subjunctive + conditional)
2) Si tuviera/tuviese dinero, lo compara/comprase (Preterit + imperfect)
3) Si tuviera/tuviese dinero, lo compraba (subjunctive + imperfect)
4) Si tenía dinero, lo compraba (the least frequent, still grammatically valid: imperfect + imperfect)
Tiffany, the way Spanish, and other today's languages, that had evolved through centuries belongs to other scenario. Romans and other conquerors imposed their language to their colonies by force otherwise the languages from where is now Spain would have remain almost intact, or at least would have evolved by themselves, just like Basque survived. In other words is way late to revert 2000 years of history and change but we can stop the thing to go worst just keeping all foreign words as away as possible.
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