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Portuguese, the most successfull language in the world!
For Sergio:
http://www.cnpq.br/noticias/090903a.htm
Pesquisas apontam preconceito no ensino da língua
Cientistas admitem a dificuldade de se trabalhar o ensino da língua portuguesa no Brasil sem esbarrar no chamado preconceito lingüístico.
Para eles, o primeiro passo para o desenvolvimento seria a aceitação da diversidade lingüística do país e o respeito a cada realidade no momento da alfabetização.
Outro aspecto a considerar é a diferença entre a língua falada e a escrita. A forma como os fonemas /e/, /é/, /o/, /ó/ são registrados no sistema ortográfico é um dos exemplos. “É inaceitável que muitos autores de cartilhas e professores em todo o Brasil não saibam que nossa língua tem sete vogais orais, e não cinco”, se espanta a pesquisadora do CNPq, Leonor Scliar-Cabral, professora da UFSC e autora de dois títulos publicados este ano pela editora Contexto, sobre o Sistema Alfabético do Português do Brasil.
Existem várias maneiras de se falar, e elas estão diretamente ligadas à cultura. Mas a escrita não tem tanta flexibilidade, ela segue normas e um dos maiores problemas no ensino da língua é o despreparo do professor no momento de fazer a ponte entre as variedades da fala e a normatização da escrita, sem desrespeitar a origem e a realidade do aluno.
Muita gente não sabe, por exemplo, que algumas variações populares como pranta/planta, ou broco/bloco, são documentadas desde o século XIV, tendo inclusive registros na documentação escrita da época. Isso não significa que os professores devam estimular os alunos em seus “erros”, mas que eles devem estar preparados para escutar e trabalhar a escrita e a leitura a partir da fala. Acompanhar cada aluno e trabalhar aulas interativas, sem o autoritarismo e o choque de valores é considerado fundamental.
Segundo a lingüista Rosa Virgínia Mattos, que coordena o Programa para a História da Língua Portuguesa (PROHPOR) da Universidade Federal da Bahia, com o apoio do CNPq, a elaboração da língua materna não se faz apenas nas séries escolares, desde os primeiros anos da infância, e sim na convivência de cada cidadão com sua própria expressão falada.
De acordo com a pesquisadora, “são as experiências do indivíduo na sociedade que contribuirão para a elaboração da língua materna”. Esta seria a valorização natural da língua, incluindo a utilização das expressões estrangeiras adaptadas para outra (neologismo), dos costumes regionais e até mesmo do vocabulário típico de cada profissão. Esta afirmação é baseada no estudo social da língua, ou seja, na sociolingüística, que atesta uma correlação entre a realidade social e o que se rotula de erro. Por isso, os cientistas da língua chamam a atenção para que se reflita sobre o chamado “erro de português”. Segundo eles, o importante é não confundir as variedades lingüísticas de um país multicultural com distúrbios de linguagem.
They all seem to be plain Portuguese.
that's because you're an idiot.
Según entiendo tu correo, no se habla en ninguna parte de que se quiera modificar la lengua escrita. Visto así, se pueden tener las diferencias que se quieran en la lengua hablada, pero la lengua escrita puede permanecer intacta como punto de referencia para TODOS los lusitófonos, como ocurre (sin grandes problemas) con el alemán.
<A forma como os fonemas /e/, /é/, /o/, /ó/ são registrados no sistema ortográfico é um dos exemplos. “É inaceitável que muitos autores de cartilhas e professores em todo o Brasil não saibam que nossa língua tem sete vogais orais, e não cinco”>
A excepción del español, todas las demás lenguas romances también expresan estos sonidos vocálicos adicionales a través de diacríticos, sin problema de reconocimiento aparente.
<Existem várias maneiras de se falar, e elas estão diretamente ligadas à cultura. Mas a escrita não tem tanta flexibilidade, ela segue normas e um dos maiores problemas no ensino da língua é o despreparo do professor no momento de fazer a ponte entre as variedades da fala e a normatização da escrita, sem desrespeitar a origem e a realidade do aluno. >
Esto es un fenómeno forzoso en todos los idiomas. La solución normalmente no reside en cambiar la lengua escrita, sino en desarrollar métodos más eficientes de la enseñanza de la misma. Cuanto mayor el grado de literatura, mayor la capacidad de aprovechar la flexibilidad disponible en una lengua escrita.
¿Qué fue primero, el huevo o la gallina? Brasil presenta una historia lingüística muy particular, diferente a Hispanoamérica. En esto estoy de acuerdo y me es difícil juzgar desde mi perspectiva. Pero, ¿no será mejor tender a la convergencia de la lengua hablada, que a la divergencia de la lengua escrita?
Em fim, gostaría muito de poder fazer mais polémica com você em português, mas o meu português é muito mau. Mas isto fica um tema muito interessante.
Well, when a Brazilians child enters the school, s/he is often attacked by professors who say: ''You don't know how to speak the propper language. I will teach you to speak like the book made in Lisbon''.
Therefore, Portuguese language is the most hated subject in Brazilian schools. They are trying to imposte Portugal's grammar rules we never use.
That's why linguists protest, and in the last 5 years, Brazilian usage is becoming more widespread even in convervative newspapers that often publish manuals ''how to speak correctly'' in which they want to bring us back to 18th century (when we Brazilians spoke: CHAMO-ME, CHEGUEI A CASA, ou VI-O--- these are Continental Portuguese forms, but outdated in Brazil)
Hi Jacyra,
I am not a languages purist. I acknowledge the dynamics of a language, the colourful expressions and the continuous development of it. No question.
But, at least from my perspective as Spanish speaker, (I am Mexican, not Spaniard) I completely agree with having a grammar for the written language, which can be a reference for all Spanish speakers. Written language has a level of formality which doesn't exist in oral language. It is forcely much more conservative, but if you have the command of it, you will always be able to express yourself properly when you need it.
When you speak, things change. You loosen the tight belt of grammar formalities, and you are able to use expressions which, although allowed, are not always correct. If there were no point of reference at all, with time all languages would have the tendency to fragment into dialects, like it happened in the past, and communication would be more difficult, which is a huge obstacle for human development in whatever area you pick.
So, written language and strict grammar rules try to hold the language together!!!, whitout taking away freedom of speech. In the case of Spanish, it would be foolish and pretentious, even with the huge area and number of speakers, to create a new grammar for American Spanish. Why should we create a new language and thus further fragmenting the Spanish language area, instead of shortening distances and keeping it together with the original one?
Most of the changes that spoken Spanish are suffering in Mexico, are saddly degradations of the language, and creating rules for allowing them to be written like that, would just increase the chaos of communicating with each other. I don't think that people need that.
My personal perception of the Brazilian Portuguese is that it is a similar case like in Mexico, for which I would have the same point of view. I mean, I really like spoken Brazilian Portuguese!!!, more than Portugal Portuguese, like I prefer any spoken American Spanish version than Spanish Castillian, but I would nevertheless stick to the only written grammar.
The Brazilian airline VARIG, to celebrate 50 years of service to neighboring Argentina, produced a short
film in `portunhol,’ in which a company representative says: ` OLÁ, JO ME "RAMO" MARCIELO E SOU BRASILENHO. ESTOY AQUI PARA COMIEMOJAR 50 ANHOS DE LA RUETA BRASIL-ARRENTINA.
UMA RUETA MARABIJOSA. AFINAL, SUEMOS PUEVOS BIZINOS, IRMONES DE CORACIONES.. ENTÓN, PARA LA BARIG, TUEDAS NOSTRAS FELICITACIONES...
''written language and strict grammar rules try to hold the language together!!!, ''
does it make sense in Brazil to keep the 200years dated grammar norms which are not used anymore
1) by anyone in speech
2) not even by modern writers like Paulo Coelho or Verissimo
(obviously Portuguese people see this ''modern brazilian grammar'' as something foreign and request translation of Brazilian books...so Paulo Coelho is translated from Brazilian Portuguese into Continental portuguese, not only spelling is changed, but morphology and syntactic structure as well (obviously lexic is changed too) )
-----
You are saying that all Argentinians should stick to Castillian norms and use TU and VOSOTROS instead of VOS and USTEDES? I don't know.
TU and VOSOTROS are not used there for much they be ''correct''
According to Milton M. Azevedo* (Brazilian linguist):
"The relationship between Vernacular Brazilian Portuguese and the formal prescriptive variety fulfills the basic conditions of Ferguson's definition [of diglossia]...[...] Considering the difficulty encountered by vernacular speakers to acquire the standard, an understanding of those relationships appears to have broad educational significance. The teaching of Portuguese has traditionally meant imparting a prescriptive formal standard based on a literary register (Cunha 1985: 24) that is often at variance with the language with which students are familiar. As in a diglossic situation, vernacular speakers must learn to read and write in a dialect they neither speak nor fully understand, a circumstance that may have a bearing on the high dropout rate in elementary schools..."
*Linguistic Introduction to Portuguese language.
Cambrigde University Press
Miguel Suárez
“«Pienso» brasileras, uruguayas”
Me pongo a pensar
mientras un cigarillo
pito
un nanaico a mi lado
me intenta ispirar
pero yo no consigo
pensar
Pensar en rialidá
penso, en alguey
que estove junto
a mi
pero no es la única
mina que crusa
por esta cabesa
maluca.
En rialidá no
puedo desidirme
en cuál pienso
en la flaca de acá
o en la moroya
de lá.
Moroya que fiquey
u sábado pasado
no clube de lá.
Cuando un gremio entrei
ua castiana
igual que eu
Buscaba
Pero una morocha
brasilera me,
me crusó y la cabesa
me atravesó
pero no es la única
Porque ete mayo
más de cinco
mina me Alegraron
las noche
Fueran tibia o
muito frías.
Guest,
I wrote from the perspective of the language in Spanish speaking Latinamerica. I guess the differences in Portuguese are really big and definitive. Maybe you are right.
Yes, with the Spanish pronouns for vos, tú, vosotros, ustedes there is really a mess. But still, except for vos, the Spanish grammar is the same everywhere.
I dont know how can someone say Brazilians and Portuguese speak a different language, its not what it seems in Portugal. Every Foreigner who comes to live in Portugal, tries to get the natural accent used in Portugal, but not brazilians, they still use the so-called " Brazilian " and no one so far complained that wasnt understood by the majority of people, even with the old generations. What i see here its a bunch of people who wants to put the " Brazilian " on the same basket as spanish,french,italian, but when its time to compare it with Portuguese, wow, its not similar to Portuguese, even the grammatical sentences or vocabulary. C'mon dont make me laugh, if u want to speak a different language, stop talking it and use tupi instead. I accept Brazilian Portuguese to be a version of continental portuguese, but not a real language. We should unite to give our language an higher international status, all of this controvery only breaks apart our recognizment as a world-wide spoken language.
Jacyra Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:55 pm GMT
««Well, when a Brazilians child enters the school, s/he is often attacked by professors who say: ''You don't know how to speak the propper language. I will teach you to speak like the book made in Lisbon''.
Therefore, Portuguese language is the most hated subject in Brazilian schools. They are trying to imposte Portugal's grammar rules we never use.
That's why linguists protest, and in the last 5 years, Brazilian usage is becoming more widespread even in convervative newspapers that often publish manuals ''how to speak correctly'' in which they want to bring us back to 18th century (when we Brazilians spoke: CHAMO-ME, CHEGUEI A CASA, ou VI-O--- these are Continental Portuguese forms, but outdated in Brazil) »»
The child is attacked by professors!! How hilarious. Jacyra you really are a comedian. Now the Brazilian teachers attack the children.
In Brazil all school books are made by Brazilians and follow the Brazilian standard.
««I will teach you to speak like the book made in Lisbon»»
This is very funny. And the book has to be one made in Lisbon. Why not speak like a book made in OPorto or Silves?
Márcio
««I dont know how can someone say Brazilians and Portuguese speak a different language, its not what it seems in Portugal.»»
Even Bagno had to surrender to the evidence. It is the same language and it will be the same language for many centuries if you take into account the opinion of Marcos Bagno.
««What i see here its a bunch of people who wants to put the " Brazilian " on the same basket as spanish,french,italian, but when its time to compare it with Portuguese, wow, its not similar to Portuguese, even the grammatical sentences or vocabulary.»»
I wonder why? hahaha
''But still, except for vos, the Spanish grammar is the same everywhere. ''
Not true at all, South of South America (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay) don't use present simple at all. It is used only rarely. The simple past is preferred, like in Portuguese, for all actions, the ones that happened 100 years ago, or the ones happened minute a go. (so past tense phrases rarely are of the form ''Una vez he ido a comer a ese restaurante. ''The form ''Una vez fui a comer a ese restaurante'' would be chosen)
Simple future is also obsolete there, IR A + infinitive being the only form used.
''But still, except for vos, the Spanish grammar is the same everywhere. ''
Not true at all, South of South America (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay) don't use present perfect at all. It is used only rarely. The simple past is preferred, like in Portuguese, for all actions, the ones that happened 100 years ago, or the ones happened minute a go. (so past tense phrases rarely are of the form ''Una vez he ido a comer a ese restaurante. ''The form ''Una vez fui a comer a ese restaurante'' would be chosen)
Simple future is also obsolete there, IR A + infinitive being the only form used.
''
Verb tenses
Spanish has two ways to express an action finished in the past: the simple past called pretérito indefinido, and the compound tense called pasado perfecto. In Spain and many other places, the compound tense is preferred in most cases:
Yo he viajado a los Estados Unidos. "I have traveled to the USA."
Cuando he llegado, la he visto. "When I have arrived, I have seen her."
However, in other places the simple past tense is preferred:
Viajé a Estados Unidos. "I traveled to the USA."
Cuando llegué, la vi. "When I arrived, I saw her."
In Argentina and Uruguay (Rioplatense Spanish), the compound past tense is used rarely, most notably when the action has been finished recently, to stress its immediacy, much like the present perfect in English, but even in those cases the simple past tense is prevalent.
¿Dónde estuviste? "Where were you?"
In this dialect, the first example of the compound past given above (Yo he viajado...) is grammatical, though it sounds affected or foreign. The second example (Cuando he llegado), however, would be considered grammatically incorrect due to the presence of the compound tense in the clause started by cuando ("when"). '''(wikipedia)
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