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-Carlos-
Where should I start. In my University there is a International Students union and I when they have their meetings is asked to participate as part of my practicum for my Inetrnational Studies major. There are students from The Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Chile, from A corun~a, Spain, and from Barcelaona, Spain. They get posed certain questions sometimes for discussion and one of them was in fact whether they understood portuguese. They of coarse spoke of The accents I talked about from Brasil. It got me thinking about the difficulty I had with certain portuguese accents myself but that was only because that meeting I observed. When I saw this topic posted I decided to comment on my experience and what I have heard. I assumed that about the Madrid accent because of what I've seen on television. We here have TVE on satellite and I have noticed the way the Madrilen~o's specifically have that interesting "s" pronunciation that is not quite an "sh" sound but also not an "s" sound. Along with the standard gluttoral "J" (I'm used to the "j" pronunciation of most accents in Castellano Americano pronounced like the English "h" sound) sound that they poses in their pronunciation plus their extremely rapid speech sometimes when I watch TVE I have difficulty understanding what they are saying. I usually have to listen to the words around those words that have those particular sound pronunciation to understand what they are saying. I just think that sound is closer to what I hae heard pronunciation wise in Oporto and Lisboa (I've been to those cities).
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««The R1b haplotype, according to the same studies, is still the most common in Western Europe, including England, to a greater extent Northern Portugal,»»
What studies are those? because R1b is not only found in Northern Portugal but all over Portugal as well as Spain. You just ripped off about 60% of Portuguese genes.
««There is still great debate on the issue of whether the Celts were a racially homogeneous population or whether even the countries where Celtic languages are spoken nowadays can be regarded as racially Celtic»»
What is defined as Celtic is not a race and it is the origin of the Celtic people that is still being discussed not where they settled. The Romans and the Greeks referred to their presence in the Iberian peninsula and the studies do not rely only in genetics but also in palaeolinguistics, archaeology, ancient history, anthropology, folklore, history of religion, ethnology, mythology and history of art.
I will give you an example, the Celtici were a préRoman tribe in center and south Portugal (Alentejo, Algarve) their tribal name was CELTICI that means Celt. You can not talk about their race, it was their tribal name.
««Then again, to compound things even further, there is abundant documentation to attest that Celtic and/or proto-celtic (or closely related Indoeuropean languages) were widespread in northern and western Iberia before the Roman colonisation»»
Some of it :
http://arkeotavira.com/Mapas/Iberia/Populi.htm
http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/index.html
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JGreco:
The /s/ you are probably talking about is the alveolar /s/ (a fricative voiceless sound) pronounced with the tip of the tongue. Depending on the dialectal variety or even the individual speaker, the front of the tongue might be displaced a bit towards the postalveolar area, the point of articulation of the sound you refer to, appearing in -for example- the Portuguese word "caixa" (postalveolar voiceless fricative/sibilant). I might be wrong, but I don't think that is characteristic of the Madrid dialect... In any case. I'm from Galicia and my I tend to pronounce the /s/ quite close to the postalveolar area too. Anyway, that is just a sound... The main problem Portuguese presents to Spanish speakers is that the phonetic system of Spanish contains fewer sounds than Portuguese, and our ears are not trained to perceive its wider variety of vowels (especially to distinguish between open and closed, stressed and unstressed) and consonants. As for the accents of Porto and Lisbon, again I'm no speciallist, but I would say that they are quite different (or so claim the Portuguese people I know, and, mind you, they can get quite pissed off if you tell them otherwise, especially Lisboans). I also fail to see the connection between their comprehensibility (by a Spanish-speaker) and the pronounciation of the letter "j" as either /x/ or /h/, or how fast they speak... Anyway, you might have a point there. I'm not aware of any research done in that respect.
Gringo:
I did not mean to suggest that R1b was only present in the North of Portugal. I simply meant that it is apparently more abundant in the North than in the rest of the country... I'm basing this claim on a PDF article I once downloaded from the net, namely: António Amorim -Instituto de Patologia e Inmunologia Molecular da Universidade de Porto- PERSPECTIVAS DE APLICAÇÂO HISTÓRICA DOS MARCADORES GENÉTICOS UNI- E BIPARENTAIS. ALGUNS EXEMPLOS NO NORTE DE PORTUGAL E NO CONTEXTO IBÉRICO. According to this article, the percentages of R1b in Northern, Central and Southern Portugal are, in the same order, 62%, 56% and 43%.
As to the Celts, where they came from and where they settled... I only gave the example of the languages spoken in pre-Roman iberia not to make my point too lengthy. Of course, other data from a multiplicity of disciplines would support their presence (or the presence of their culture and language...) OK, their origin is being discussed too (Northern Iberia being amongst the candidates, according to one or two researchers) but still the most widely accepted theory is that, after coming from somewhere around the Caucasus or the Ukraine, they settled more or less permanently in Central Europe. However, was the spread of their culture due to a significant migration or to other factors? I leave this issue for learned scholars to debate. As to the R1b haplotype, it is reckoned to have been present in Europe from as far back as 35.000-40.000 years BC, much earlier than the Celts. From what I have read, it probably has nothing to do with them originally. But then again, I do not think that any single haplotype has been pointed out so far as the most common among them, and doubt that it will ever be.
OK, I was probably wrong in using the term "race." They were not a race, but an ethnic group. I used "race" with a very lax meaning.
SORRY, MODERATOR, FOR HAVING DIVERGED FROM THE PURPOSE OF THIS FORUM. I WON'T DO IT AGAIN.
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Olá
Carlos:
««I did not mean to suggest that R1b was only present in the North of Portugal. I simply meant that it is apparently more abundant in the North than in the rest of the country... »»
If what you mean and what you write do not agree I can not guess what you want to say.
Also you have the same pattern in Spain. Some regions where people have more Rb1 some regions others where peple have less.
««ALGUNS EXEMPLOS NO NORTE DE PORTUGAL »»
This means "some examples in northen Portugal". He MADE NO studies in the rest of the country.
The number of samples was not the same and he compares his findings with other studies(made witth different pourposes and by different methods and criteria). When the number of samples is very small or different from region to region the results are different. The criteria and method used has to be just one.
When I look at that kind of studies I always pay good attention to what they want to pove the method used and the number of samples where and by whom they were given(what was their criteria to select or refuse sample doners). One little thing and the results differ because they always use very small samples.
I can also tell you that by some findings Portuguese and Basque people lack a mediterranian haplotype, meaning a lower admixture with Mediterraneans. And what does this mean? They still have to test the entire population or most of it to be really sure.
But what has this to do with Celts or language?
««from somewhere around the Caucasus or the Ukraine»»
Just going around in circles, this is the SAME place legends say Iberians came from the "caucasin-Iberia" and the same place Visigoths and Alans lived before invading Iberia.
woops "Any one" that lived there ended up in the Iberian peninsula.
««I also fail to see the connection between their comprehensibility (by a Spanish-speaker) and the pronounciation of the letter "j" as either /x/ or /h/, or how fast they speak... »»
their comprehensibility ?? You are referring to ?
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Gringo:
"If what you mean and what you write do not agree I can not guess what you want to say."
I do not quite know how to interpret your condescending tone... Are you trying to be irksome on purpose or are you cantankerous by nature? Do you perhaps have a bone to pick with someone and are taking it out on me (or on any Spaniard, perhaps: de Espanha nem bom vento nem bom cassamento?)
Please, do not make me engage in a sterile battle about whose fault it was, whether mine for the way I expressed myself or yours for your erroneous interpretation. Anyone civilised would have put it down to a misunderstanding, without impolitely attributing the blame to the other person, especially if he has gone to the trouble of trying to clarify it. I have also had some difficulties in interpreting your message above as what you meant ("I CANNOT/CAN'T guess what you want to say") is not the same as what you said ("I CAN NOT guess what you want to say": i.e: it is POSSIBLE FOR ME NOT TO guess..."). I suggest, for the sake of both sanity and courtesy, that we both accept that some misunderstanding is inevitable in human communication when/if we have the pleasure of continuing this discussion.
Here is yet another attempt at clarification on my part: the percentage of 60% I gave for the R1b haplogroup was an average for the whole of Spain. I've seen it put at as high as 70% in some other places.
As for the study I mentioned about Portugal, I confess, guilty as claimed! I have not checked its sources, methods, criteria, sample size, hidden motives (???) etc. I will justify myself by alleging that my "knowledge" on this issue is that of a layman. To illustrate my point with an analogy, my attitude towards the article I cited is pretty much the same as when I'm prescribed certain tablets by my doctor: I take them without checking first what scientific methods were followed to discover the active principle that makes them effective. I daresay most people would identify with this.
Anyway, as in any legal system, if you wish to argue the data in that article were wrong, the burden of the proof is yours... i.e: it is not the accused (myself? Mr. Amorim?) who should defend his innocence, but the accuser (you) who should convincingly prove that the accused is in fact guilty beyond any reasonable doubt (in this case, of the crime of distorsion of the truth...). In other words: if you claim that Mr. Amorim's conclusions are not sustainable owing to any flaws in his scientific method, it would be nice if you could support your claims with data rather than with mere observations in that direction. Otherwise, the case will be overseen by lack of sufficient evidence. To put it more clearly: if you have the scientific knowledge and data that might put me in the right, please, be as kind as to share it. So far, I have no palpable reasons that would make me believe you rather than Mr. Amorim.
I should not feel the need to say this but, anyway, just in case: I have nothing against the Portuguese. Quite on the contrary: I love that country, north, centre and south, and, as a Galician, feel at totally at home there. I find it totally immaterial whether the percentage of carriers of the R1b haplotype in that country is higher or lower than in Spain, or whether population-wise it is at the edge of a neolithic expansion or not.
"But what has this to do with Celts or language?"
Someone else introduced the issue of the Celts, by saying that if it were true that there was an ethnic connection between Northern Iberia and the British Isles through the R1b haplotype, we Spaniards would be all blond and Celtic... I just wanted to argue that the R1b haplotype had nothing to do with the Celts, and that what we know of them is blurred by the mists of the past (including their physical appearance).
"woops "Any one" that lived there ended up in the Iberian peninsula"
And, oops!, anyone who lived in Africa if we go far back enough seems to have ended up all over the world.... And so? What are you getting at?
"their comprehensibility ?? You are referring to ?"
- It was in answer to JGreko's observations. See above.
- "Their" possessive deictic referring back to "the accents of Lisbon and Porto"
Comprehensibility: synonymous of "understandability" (capacity for being understood).
- General Context: Answering the question "what langage is easiest for Spanish speakers to understand?"
- In other words: The understandability of the accents of Lisbon and Porto by Spanish speakers.
I hope that clarified it. Might pop in some day to check your answer, and if you are pleasant, I might even consider answering. If that were the case, I promise to try to do it in a civilised way.
Cheers for now!
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I am from Germany, My language is considered supposedly ugly LOL
now I have been to Brazil and I don't think most brazilians qualify as being white in the US sense of the word.
the average person from brazil looks like a typical latin american to me....
now between both languages I think most Germans would chose spanish over portuguese because of cultural importance.... also portuguese is very unknown in germany to the point a reporter once claimed that portuguese is one of the most important dialects of the spanish language !! :(
Renato: I was in Brazil and I didn't see people hating on the spanish language, neither I saw people hating on portuguese language when I was in Chile, columbia and cuba.... actually I don't think any one ever said anything about the portuguese language at all.
I think you are very infatuated with race (americanized yourself a lot huh?)
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I am Brazilian, and we consider ourselves Latin Americans for clear reasons: Brazil is located in South America and we speak Portuguese, a Latin language.
But what does the word Hispanic mean to Americans? A person from South America/ Central America who speaks Spanish? If so, Brazilians are not Hispanics because our mother language is Portuguese, I mean "Brazilian Portuguese". The word "Hispanic" sounds strange when applied to us because it gives the impression to the world that we speak Spanish. And, you know, many people DO think we speak Spanish because Brazil is surrounded by countries whose mother language is Spanish.
And please don´t misunderstand me. I love the Spanish language. In my opinion is one of the most beautiful languages in the world, really, if not the most beautiful one. But the language is part of the identity of a people. And Brazilians speak Portuguese, not Spanish.
One remark that is key: there are differences between Continental Portuguese (spoken in Portugal) and "Brazilian Portuguese". I think that my "hermanos" in South America are able to understand "Brazilian Portuguese", the same way Brazilians can understand them. We have even created a new language called "Portunhol" (Português + Espanhol = Portuguese + Spanish). But I have to confess that I don´t understand the Spanish spoken in Spain. It is too fast.
As far as Portuguese is concerned, the differences in pronunciation between Continental Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese are very relevant.
I am not sure if an Argentinian would be able to understand Continental Portuguese, but I think that, with little effort, he/she will be able to understand Brazilian Portuguese. Furthermore, I would like to emphasize that, due to Mercosur, many high schools in Brazil added Spanish to their curriculum.
Finally, I really don´t know if Spaniards and Portuguese can understand each other. But here in South America, we managed to understand each other.
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Just one additional remark: I am answering the question "What language is easiest for Spanish speakers to understand? My opinion is: in South America is Brazilian Portuguese.
I am not talking about races or skin color. After all, Brazil is a melting pot! I am blond and as white as a sheet of paper and Pelé is Afro-Brazilian. But we were both born in Brazil, speak Brazilian Portuguese and are "latinos".
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Elaine:
Simply and plainly, as far as main national languages are concerned, I AGREE WITH YOU. Yes, Brazilian Portuguese is easier to understand for us Spanish speakers than European Portuguese (and I'm not making a value judgement here...).
German Girl and Renato:
I simply don't understand why you have introduced the things you talk about and who you are referring to...
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i disagree most mexicans are mestizo and all spainards are white
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to Elaine Pepe,
We have even created a new language called "Portunhol" (Português + Espanhol = Portuguese + Spanish). /
You have created a new language called portunhol? Have you registered the invention? Spain and Portugal have spoken portunhol even before Brasil was invented .
to german girl,
"white in the us sense" is that a new color shade? If you can not speak like an european do not pretend to be one.
to Carlos,
try fast spoken Castilian from Spain.
The posts are all from the same funny person or you are all twins
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Hey many people in Italy have the name Josue..That is soo cool!!
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>>Hey many people in Italy have the name Josue..That is soo cool!!
True... and it's written " Giosuè ".
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Guest, you don't need a "b" in the word describing how clumsy a person or group is.
I suppose some Spanish speaker upset up and you're mad about it.
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