About Catalan...

Sergio, bon vespre,

Són la una de la matinada i fins demà horabaixa no tindré temps de respondre't. Miraré que sigui de la millor manera possible.

Si fos possible de posar-me en contacte amb tu, m'agradaria enviar-te un parell de llibres.

Fins demà.

Miquel Adrover

Hola Miquel,

Gracias por tu pronta respuesta.
Puedes escribirme a sergio_coembal@hotmail.com para contactarme.

Que descanses y hasta pronto.

Hola de nuevo Miquel,

Te respondí tu correo desde mi dirección. J'ai reçu deux e-mails sur ton nom hier.

Saludos,

A propòsit dels dos missatges precedents d'en Sergio.

Primer de tot, excusa'm pel retard a respondre.

Bé, anem a pams:

1) "Jo vaig anar, "jo aní", nosaltres vam o vàrem anar", "nosaltres anàrem".

Les formes simples "aní, anares, anà, anàrem, anàreu, anarem" són minoritàries i en reculada. Les sentiràs, sobretot, a la ciutat de València i la seva horta, a Eivissa i, molt menys, a Mallorca. Però només en certes persones. "Aní" pràcticament no existeix, ni en llengua popular ni en llengua escrita. "Anà", una mica més, i encara més les altres.

A Mallorca mateix, al meu poble, només empram les formes perifràstiques, "vaig anar".

En haver d'escriure, les formes simples sí que són freqüents (llevat de la primera persona, "aní"). I resulta pràctica l'alternança d'unes i altres formes per tal com alleugereixen la prosa. Si sempre escrivíem "vaig anar, varen anar, etc.", ens trobaríem en un cas idèntic al de l'alemany, que forma el futur igual com el català forma el passat: amb formes perifràstiques ("Ich werde essen", etc.) i que confereixen una certa feixuguesa a la llengua alemanya.

Jo, per exemple, què faig? Quasi sempre, en parlar, formes perifràstiques, però, adesiara, qualque forma simple ("anàrem", "anàreu", però mai "aní").

Si, a Barcelona per exemple, et serveixes de la forma simple, probablement la reacció dels interlocutors serà de badar uns ulls com a taronges i exclamar-se: "Oh, que hi parles, de bé". Una cosa és segura: ningú no es riurà mai de tu.

2) La "ll". Com saps, es grafia com en castellà, mentre que el portuguès té "lh", el francès "ill" i l'italià "gli". Cosa curiosa, l'occità té "lh" (copiada pel portuguès), però, a l'edat mitjana, també hi és freqüent la nostra "ll".

N'hi hauria per a pensar que aquest fonema té alguna dificultat de pronunciació intrínseca. En francès (fille) fa segles que va desaparèixer de la llengua estàndard. L'italià el conserva, tot i que el parlar popular de Roma mostra una tendència fortíssima a transformar aquest "gli" en "i", és a dir que sovint s'hi sent "mio figlio" pronunciat "mio fiio". El portuguès de les Açores i de moltes zones del Brasil també és ieista.

En italià i en portuguès, però, aquesta reducció de "ll" a "y", o sia el ieisme, és fortament estigmatitzada, de manera que una persona no pot aspirar a esser locutor de ràdio o televisió si no pronuncia la "ll" correctamente.

En castellà les coses són diferents, tot i que la "ll" no ha desaparegut i, aparentment, les cadenes de ràdio i televisió espanyoles n'afavoreixen la persistència o la reintroducció. I això amb succés.

I en català? Bé, els mass media nostres no admeten cap locutor ieista, o sia que pronunciï "allà" com a "aià", i "aquell" o "llamp" com a "aquei" i "iamp". Un ieista, a casa nostra, és mirat una mica com a infantil.

Perquè (i això ho he comprovat amb els meus infants) la "ll" és el darrer fonema que, normalment, els menuts aprenen d'articular. Els meus, per exemple, va esser el darrer fonema que adquiriren i, des que tenien, diguem, quatre o cinc anys, pronuncien perfectament.

I la llengua del carrer? Bé, si tens present que, a l'hora d'ara, a Mallorca per exemple, el 47% de la població és immigrada, encara la cosa va bé. La "ll" es manté ferma, amb certes excepcions. Hi ha el fet, negatiu, que, així com els pares i les mares (i els avis i les àvies) de la meva generació ensenyaven de parlar bé als infants i els corregien, ara la moda és el "laissez faire", no fos cas que traumatitzéssim els pobres menudets amb les nostres correccions.

3) La vocal neutra, que aquí grafiaré "ë", i que és la que trobam en anglès en els mots "beggar", "the", etc., és a dir una vocal pronunciada sense tensió de la llengua.

Com deus haver vist en les explicacions d'en Pere Joan, el valencià, es presenta només en català oriental (Perpinyà, Girona, Barcelona, Tarragona, les Illes Balears i, mutatis mutandis, a l'Alguer de l'illa de Sardenya). En aquests parlars, tota "a" i tota "e" àtones es pronuncien "ë". Aquest fenomen de "reducció" o "neutralització" de vocals àtones és habitual en anglès, en rus, en portuguès europeu, etc. "Panada" (empanada en espanyol) i "penada" (pena molt intensa), es pronuncien, en oriental, "pënádë" totes dues. No cal dir que el context evita tot risc de confusió.

Mentre que en el català occidental (Andorra, Lleida, Tortosa, Castelló, València i Alacant), les "a" i les "e" àtones conserven llur to propi, tal i com fan el castellà o l'italià.

En relació amb la vocal neutra, però, hi ha un altre tret que caracteritza els parlars balears: l'existència d'una "ë", vocal neutra, en posició tònica.

Pren la frase següent: "Aquest estiu fa molta calor i els turistes francesos en són contents".

Pronunciada per un valencià (el nostre amic Pere Joan, per exemple), sentiràs:

"Akést estiu fa molta calor i els turistes fransézos en són konténs".

Un barceloní diria:

"ëkèt istiu fa moltë këló i ëls turistës frënsèsus ën són kunténs".

Jo, mallorquí, faig quasi com els barcelonins, amb les diferències que pronuncii "ëquést", "frënsësos" (la vocal neutra tònica) i "konténs".

Com veus, la pronúncia occidental, i concretament la valenciana, s'adapta molt més a l'escriptura. Recorda un poc la diferència entre el portuguès europeu (que s'acosta a la pronúncia de Barcelona) i el brasiler (que assemblaria més a la pronúncia valenciana).

4) "En" i "hi". En principi, igual com en francès, amb certes diferències mínimes que ara no especificaré. En italià, "ne" i "ci" tenen els mateixos usos, llevat, també, d'algunes diferències.

Uf, ja està.

Salut a tutti quanti.

Miquel Adrover

Salutacions Miquel,

Només volia comentar-te que a la ciutat de València i la comarca de l'Horta l'ús del passat simple es manté viu en la llengua parlada per a totes les persones, inclosa la primera del singular. Jo, que sóc de l'Horta, dic coses com "viu" (vaig veure), "fiu" (vaig fer), "aní" (vaig anar)... Aquestes formes conviuen ací amb les formes perifràstiques, senzillament les alternem sense cap criteri, com millor ens ve. Això sí, observe que entre la gent jove (probablement per allò de la normalització, l'escola, els mitjans de comunicació, etc.) cada vegada hi ha més passat perifràstic i menys passat simple.

Doncs res, només era això.

Una salutació ben cordial des del País Valencià.

Thank-you for starting this thread. Although I can't write in Catalan, I can get the gist of much of it.

I've been to Spain, but not where Catalan is spoken. If I go to Barcelona, should I speak Spanish or English?

There isn't much opportunity to learn Catalan in the United States, but it seems like an interesting language.

"'ve been to Spain, but not where Catalan is spoken. If I go to Barcelona, should I speak Spanish or English? "

This is a good one. Let me see... They think they are French, but the French think they are Moors. They think they are not Spaniards but Northern Spaniards think of catalans as inferior because catalans are dark and genetically Iberians. The truth? I've never seen a catalan speaking decent English. Ok some might try but their accent is awful. Nah! Try Spanish and you'll annoy at least 10% of them and if you don't annoy them at least you'll have the language advantage.

K.T.:

You'll be easily understood if you speak Spanish because everybody in the Catalan-speaking countries can understand and speak Spanish. If you speak English, most people won't understand you.

Galego:

You are an absolute stupid.

"You are an absolute stupid."

Not really. I have a PhD from the MIT. I just dislike all those silly mental games catalans play. I know them all since I spent a very LONG year in Barna. But most of what I said is true. Maybe I should have said it a little less straightforward. But... What part is false?

I speak French, but...

I know there are tensions there; However, I wonder what language has more prestige or which is less likely to offend. We were thinking of going to Mallorca too.

Thanks for the suggestions.

The funniest thing about this all is to realise that if you're a good Catalan, just a good traditional Catalan, you immediately become a bad Spaniard for the rest of the country.

Regarding our linguistic skills, the only true bilingual city I know in Spain is Madrid. Go to Madrid or even Galicia. They all speak beautiful English with a perfect Oxford accent.

As a matter of fact, most people in Madrid and Galicia are not teaching Spanish any longer to their children. They have decided it is much more important to teach their children the most important language in the world, English.

Most of the younger crowd in Madrid or Galicia already speak Spanish, the official language of the state for the time being, (Galician is obviously not spoken at all), with a terrible English accent.

I don't think irony makes a lot of sense in this thread but I'll give it a go.

One thing I can tell you. I, as a Catalan, have a much better accent in English than I have in Spanish.


Poor, poor Galego who spent a very, very long year in Barcelona. I'm so happy for you you won't have to go through that all over again. I certainly hope so for your good and our own. Meanwhile, according to official figures, Barcelona is still one of the most beautiful and interesting cities and Europe and we receive people in all languages including our own (Catalan, of course).

By the way, I love the Galician countryside. So lush and green. Also the Jacobean way, such a path of culture even though there are people like you born in every country, including Catalonia.

<<The truth? I've never seen a catalan speaking decent English. Ok some might try but their accent is awful.>>

I've seen lots of them, and I was frankly surprised. Catalan speakers can get a better accent more easily than Castilians. That's for sure.

Pete from Peru

"I, as a Catalan, have a much better accent in English than I have in Spanish"
"Barcelona is still one of the most beautiful and interesting cities and Europe"

Catalans are fine people and Barcelona is also a fine city. On the other hand <one the most...> is really pushing it since they are SO MANY beautiful cities.

Anyway... one of the most interesting things about Catalans is the amount of complex baggage they seem to carry with them.

Within an hour of your arrival to the city you should have been able to listen to some of these fascinating ideas they have about themselves:

- How European they are... This is the most interesting one since it would be very hard to define what an European means. On the physical side you could take most of them to the middle east and they would look from the place.

- I speak better French or better English than... Spanish. This is hardly believable but their insistence on this issue is very revealing. See above.

- In Catalan "xxxx" is "yyyy" just like French. Review a previous post where this guys states that "Thanks" in Catalan is Gràcies' or 'merci'. Funny I never heard 'merci'

- In Cataluyna you might be from any place in Spain but magically you become a "Castellá". Even worse if you don't behave like the standard "poor Castellá" who is moving to the promise land to make a living you are put in a even worse category: you are a fascist and imperialist "madrileño" even if you are a maoist from Pamplona. Tough choice!

After two days there you'll be so sick of these games that you'll cater to the locals who moved there from other areas of Spain and are 2nd or 3rd generation Catalans and don't exhibit all these mental problems. I found very fine people among them.

But... here are the good news: If you understand all these mental games Catalans play you might be able to put them to work to your advantage when - for any reason - you have to negotiate with them... They are good at negotiation and despite having their own "mental baggage" they tend to be reasonable people. Good merchants after all.

This is my advice to negotiate or just deal with Catalans:

- Start by stating that Barcelona is the most beautiful city you've ever seen. Weather you believe it or not this sentence lowers their defenses. Now they are half way on your side. Add... that it looks so European...

- State that "Madrileños" are besides imperialist centralist fascist types mostly ignorant people and they all work for the government who takes to Madrid the euros the Catalans work so hard at earning.

- You might add that "Catalan sounds so much like French". Now they truly adore you, they are static and without defense. You own them. Go for the killing and negotiate those prices...

Now I am ready to hear any opinion about "galegos". But don't worry we also play games... I'll give you that. Our favorite game is to play stupid... which is a smarter game than playing smart...

My dear Galician Galego,

To start with it's a pleasure to use languages for communication. To have two Spaniards use English at such a high level is also a pleasure. If only partially, it proves my point.

The thing about European State Nationalists is that, no matter how cultivated and witty you might get, they're always patronising. It doesn't matter if they're English, French, Spanish or Italian.

If we, historic nations without a state behind us, patronise, we become some sort of regional ignorant farmers, if they do they have the right of history and historic victories on their side. We can all understand that.

In normal cultures and well defined linguistic territories people are born and bred monolingual. It's only too right. I learnt my first words of Castilian Spanish when I was 6 years old. To this day, in my 30s, I dream and think in my native Catalan. Nothing that doesn't happen in other "normal" territories. I'm obviously fluent in other languages, including Spanish and English. I leave my written English to prove my point and I can assure my spoken English sounds very good. I live in Catalonia and I've only spent very short periods in Great Britain. Nobody had to pass a law making English compulsory for me.

When I was 6 years another language entered my life. Castilian better known, throughout the world, as Spanish. I wasn't asked and neither were my parents nor their parents before them. This has been the case since 1714 when Catalonia was a part of the Spanish Crown but with only Catalan as the official language.

I grew up in a medium size Catalan town and I didn't move to Barcelona until I was a teenager. The state in which I lived decided I had to become fluent in Spanish and much later on I decided to also be fluent in English and some other European language.

I have a moderately heavy Catalan accent in my Castilian Spanish. There's nothing I can do to avoid it. I could never work in a national Spanish broadcasting network. I've never felt the need but the case is I wouldn't be received.

I would obviously be received in any Catalan broadcasting station with my hinterland Catalan language and accent. With languages either you're native or you aren't and well over half the Catalan population (just about everybody outside Barcelona) is still not native in Spanish. Quite a miracle in Europe where most lesser used languages have either been wiped out or bastardised. I have a university degree and I'm therefore very fluent in Spanish: "¡faltaría más!" I could even write an essay should that be required of me.

Barcelona is one of the 10 most visited cities in the world at the present time according to Spanish official tourist figures. It is one of the most important European "city breaks" and, whether we like it or not, it is the most visited Spanish city right now. There's a Barcelona web page everybody can check on his own and decide.

Since the 16th century Spanish dinasties (and many of the scholars) have looked suspiciously at the rest of Europe. This began to change, all over Spain, in the 1920s and 1930s but, unfortunately, the Franco regime brought us back to the Darkest Ages. Barcelona and the Catalan-speaking territories along the Mediterranean coast have been, during several centuries, the geographical areas where Spain still met the rest of Europe. This is what we mean and this has been said by many Spanish scholars before me. Since the late 70s, thanks God!, most of Spain is widely open to the rest of the western world.

Half the population in Barcelona comes from other areas outside Catalonia. This is a blessing if it is well managed. I have seen parts of Madrid, Paris or London looking much more middle-easterner than we do. I believe middle-easterners are a beautiful human race, both men and women, but I recommed a visit to the country, thorughout Catalonia. We are slightly uglier than in Barcelona but we often tend to get sunburnt and to have to wear sun glasses and a hat in summer. This, unfortunately, is my case and that of quite a few million Catalonians as happens in most of Europe. We live far too south for our own good although climatic changes are sunburning the northerners as well.

Catalans do not have a complex. The only complex in Spain is that of State Nationalists who cannot understand how we don't understand that we can be Spanish in our difference. If not, we rather remain Catalan, which is what we are from birth. They actually have been the greatest separatists in the past few centuries and it's hardly surprising many Catalans are worried. Each time there is a war in Spain (1714, 1936-39) the first thing they do is ban "regional languages" because of Catalonia. I don't think they are really worried about Galician or even Basque.

On the whole I agree most Catalans speak much better Spanish than any other language. Spanish and Catalan are compulsory co-official languages in Catalonia. All Catalans learn Spanish and get to use it. Quite a few Spanish-speaking people will never really speak Catalan even if they are quite fluent after 12 years of schooling.


If you never heard "mèrci" (pronounced with an opened "e" in Catalan) it's because you've never wanted to be thanked in Catalan. I can understand you since I know many people like you. It's funny how the same geographical space can be shared and, yet, we can be living in two different worlds. Most Catalans will pass to Spanish if requested. Very often you don't even have to ask. Spanish State Nationalists take great advantage of the situation and get really angry when Catalan State Nationalists pretend to only speak in Catalan in their home country.


To be a "castellà" in Catalonia means you are a Spanish language speaker and not from Castille. People in Quebec are also called "French" although they haven't been French for centuries. This is a clearly marked historic tradition.

The question is: recent immigration pretends Spanish should also be the "native language of the Catalonian land" although if a Spanish speaking village received 50% Catalan-speaking speakers they would be expected to absolutely forget their Catalan. On the other hand immigrants from other countries are expected to strengthen the position of Castilian in Catalonia. If they learn better Catalan it is felt as a betrayal.

I forget, of course, that State Nationalists only call Nationalists those who don't believe in the way they want "their state" to be managed.

I can understand you being sick after two days in Catalonia. Many Galicians do have a great complex. They are also bilingual in Galician and Spanish but it's a different story. The histories of Galicia and Catalonia are quite different although a few Galicians would also agree with me and there are Galician State Nationalists as well. After all, it's a question of power within the state, isn't it?

The "fine Catalonian people" you mention, of course, are those who agree with you and want a fully Castilian Spanish Spain where Catalan could obviously be spoken "in the home" and "with the family" and "close friends". Sociolinguistics speak of A and B languages. It's a university subject right now and there's lot of international bibligraphy available, mostly from the United States and also Catalonia! It's hardly surpising!

One, of course, "has to negotiate with the Catalans". We are "good merchants" and are "an important part of Spain". We all know that gibberish... We are also some sort of thieves no matter how hard-working we are!

Therefore, since we are stupid and we only want to be flattered, tell us, Catalans, what we want to hear and learn perfect Catalan. It's a good way to start if you want to live amongst us. It's what normal people do in normal situations.

I can understand you left Barcelona after a very, very, long year. You had better horizons and couldn't stand the pressure of such a "provincial place".

As for my American or British friends, please come to Barcelona and try to see something more of Catalonia. Many people fall in love with the land and quite a few even end up learning Catalan. It's a Romance language and it's not really difficult at all. You'll get in touch with a rich tradition which is, after all, the best base for trade and the future in any part of the civilised world. If you want to learn excellent European Spanish please don`t come to Europe although I have friends who have learnt beautiful English in Scotland and Ireland! You can, of course, learn beautiful Spanish in Barcelona as well. Please check which courses are given in Catalan and which in Spanish (or English!) in Catalan universities.

I have some very nive intelligent Galician friends a land I've visited several times. Catalans, according to official Spanish State figures, make up 40% of Spanish tourists within Spain. We're only 15% of the population.

Don't we all tend to think that we choose our friends for their values?

I certainly do and not for their political agenda. As for languages the sooner I learn them the better. When in Rome do as Romans do.
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I meant "please don't come to Barcelona" and not "please don't come to Europe". I suppose that's understood in the context. I apologise for not editing.