I won't say Spanish and Italian are more mutually intelligible out of the box , but for example if a Spanish speaker has some notions of French (or Catalan, Valencian and Majorcan for the matter) he will understand more easily Italian than Portuguese.
How much spanish sounds like brazilian portuguese?
Gabriella is right, the standard Rioplatense pronunciation of 'll' is identical to how 'ch' is pronounced in Portuguese (both sides of the Atlantic), and the only way you can tell Brazilian 'chamar' from Argentinian 'llamar' is because of the vowels.
<<Gabriella is right, the standard Rioplatense pronunciation of 'll' is identical to how 'ch' is pronounced in Portuguese (both sides of the Atlantic),>>
No, in Northern Portugal CH is pronounced differently.
Anyways we were comparing lluvia and chuva . V in Spanish is not the same than in Portuguese.
No, in Northern Portugal CH is pronounced differently.
Anyways we were comparing lluvia and chuva . V in Spanish is not the same than in Portuguese.
And in N. Portugal the 'V' is often like Spanish. For example in Portuguese 'Vaca' cow is often pronounced 'Baca'. Here you see that the 'V' in Portuguese is pronounced like the Spanish 'V' sometimes.
And according to your reasoning, "...for example if a Spanish speaker has some notions of French (or Catalan, Valencian and Majorcan for the matter) he will understand more easily Italian than Portuguese." Then it follows that if a Spanish speakers also had some notions of Portuguese, and most do, then he/she would still understand Portuguese much better than Italian.
But at least Penetra understood what was meant with 'llamar' and 'chamar'. She rightly said that "Rioplatense pronunciation of 'll' is identical to how 'ch' is pronounced in Portuguese (both sides of the Atlantic), and the only way you can tell Brazilian 'chamar' from Argentinian 'llamar' is because of the vowels."
And according to your reasoning, "...for example if a Spanish speaker has some notions of French (or Catalan, Valencian and Majorcan for the matter) he will understand more easily Italian than Portuguese." Then it follows that if a Spanish speakers also had some notions of Portuguese, and most do, then he/she would still understand Portuguese much better than Italian.
But at least Penetra understood what was meant with 'llamar' and 'chamar'. She rightly said that "Rioplatense pronunciation of 'll' is identical to how 'ch' is pronounced in Portuguese (both sides of the Atlantic), and the only way you can tell Brazilian 'chamar' from Argentinian 'llamar' is because of the vowels."
It makes sense because some phonology of Rioplatense Spanish was influenced by the Portuguese when Brazil was being settled by the Portuguese, and when Uruguay was under Portuguese control i.e., in 1680 Portuguese from Brazil founded Nova Colonia do Sacramento on Rio de la Plata estuary. Parts of nearby Argentina were influenced by Portuguese as well.
<<Then it follows that if a Spanish speakers also had some notions of Portuguese, and most do
>>
You are terribly wrong on that. People have some knowledge of Portuguese are scarce in Spain. I don't mean people who have passive knowledge of Portuguese but those who have studied it formally. Even Italian is more studied than Portuguese in Spain.
>>
You are terribly wrong on that. People have some knowledge of Portuguese are scarce in Spain. I don't mean people who have passive knowledge of Portuguese but those who have studied it formally. Even Italian is more studied than Portuguese in Spain.
<< It makes sense because some phonology of Rioplatense Spanish was influenced by the Portuguese when Brazil was being settled by the Portuguese, and when Uruguay was under Portuguese control i.e., in 1680 Portuguese from Brazil founded Nova Colonia do Sacramento on Rio de la Plata estuary. Parts of nearby Argentina were influenced by Portuguese as well. >>
It's the other way around, Brazilian Portuguese is heavily influenced by Spanish.
It's the other way around, Brazilian Portuguese is heavily influenced by Spanish.
I disagree with you Penetra. Why is it that you mostly hear the 'll' being identical to how the 'ch' is pronounced in Portuguese mostly in the Rioplatense region which coincidentally was under Portuguese control for a time? Generally speaking, everywhwere else Spanish speakers prononce the 'll' how it is normally pronounced. The Brazilians DID NOT inherit your 'll' sound, the Rioplatense region inherited the Portuguese 'ch' sound. Let's get it straight.
And Mallorqui, Portuguese is quite well known by Spanish speakers from Galicia and all the way down those areas near the Portuguese border (Extramadura and Andalusia) and even a little into the interior. Let's be honest here. Spaniards cross over to Portugal to work, shop, vacation, with regularity - many even have prosperous businesses there. Of course they are familiar with Portuguese. Don't forget either that many Spanish speaking countries in Latin America have Portuguese as the 2nd language of choice in schools i.e., Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay - I think it's even compulsory now because of the Mercosur trade agreement of Latin America. Even in Cuba Portuguese is a popular 2nd language of choice in the schools, particularly the universities.
Secondly, today Portuguese is way, way more studied as a second language in the world than Italian. Lets not compare apples with oranges. You are comparing a major world langauge (6th in the world natively spoken) with one that is not. Even the Chinese are learning Portuguese as they do tons of trade with some of the Portuguese speaking countries such as Brazil, Angola, Portugal, Mozambique. And don't forget that Portuguese, is still a co-official language in Macau, China.
And Mallorqui, Portuguese is quite well known by Spanish speakers from Galicia and all the way down those areas near the Portuguese border (Extramadura and Andalusia) and even a little into the interior. Let's be honest here. Spaniards cross over to Portugal to work, shop, vacation, with regularity - many even have prosperous businesses there. Of course they are familiar with Portuguese. Don't forget either that many Spanish speaking countries in Latin America have Portuguese as the 2nd language of choice in schools i.e., Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay - I think it's even compulsory now because of the Mercosur trade agreement of Latin America. Even in Cuba Portuguese is a popular 2nd language of choice in the schools, particularly the universities.
Secondly, today Portuguese is way, way more studied as a second language in the world than Italian. Lets not compare apples with oranges. You are comparing a major world langauge (6th in the world natively spoken) with one that is not. Even the Chinese are learning Portuguese as they do tons of trade with some of the Portuguese speaking countries such as Brazil, Angola, Portugal, Mozambique. And don't forget that Portuguese, is still a co-official language in Macau, China.
It looks like Argentinian LL has some to do with Napolitan. The influence of Italian immigrants on the Spanish spoken in Argentina is well attested, whereas that of Portuguese isn't, in fact I never heard of it. Thus the resemblance between Argentinian LL and Portuguese CH is just a coincidence.
Sorry Mallorqui, nice theory but you can try selling it to someone else. I only accept evidence that is rooted in sound scholarship.
By the way, on the internet just now I just found tons of schools in Spain that teach Portuguese formally - some even lead to degrees. You must be terribly disappointed to hear that.
By the way, on the internet just now I just found tons of schools in Spain that teach Portuguese formally - some even lead to degrees. You must be terribly disappointed to hear that.
if a Spanish speaker has some notions of French (or Catalan, Valencian and Majorcan for the matter) he will understand more easily Italian than Portuguese.
//
this is not true in the case of Shakira:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNMjucJGvX8
//
this is not true in the case of Shakira:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNMjucJGvX8
For the “ español neutro” estandar Spanish
- It is indistinct “ v “ and “b”
- “h” no exists to speak
- has 5 vowels alone
- The comprehension of the listener bases in recognizing these 5 vowels and the syllables that they form.
- For this is no fundamental the consonants for the comprehension and and allows different sounds in the consonants.
Because of it for the portugeses and Brazilians it is very easy to understand.
Spanish is like Portuguese With “5 vowels alone” and is not import the sounds of the consonants.
- It is indistinct “ v “ and “b”
- “h” no exists to speak
- has 5 vowels alone
- The comprehension of the listener bases in recognizing these 5 vowels and the syllables that they form.
- For this is no fundamental the consonants for the comprehension and and allows different sounds in the consonants.
Because of it for the portugeses and Brazilians it is very easy to understand.
Spanish is like Portuguese With “5 vowels alone” and is not import the sounds of the consonants.
I'm originally from Madrid Spain and I'm married to a Portuguese man - we currently live in Lisbon. I fee like I needed to give an opinion.
I think that although one can study Portuguese in Spain, or Spanish in Portugal, their is the feeling between both that they do not need to formally learn each others language since they can already communicate easily.
I think that although one can study Portuguese in Spain, or Spanish in Portugal, their is the feeling between both that they do not need to formally learn each others language since they can already communicate easily.