All the Romance languages derived from Latin, but over time they evolved differently. That is how flase cognates have come about. Over time, words in a language takes on a new meaning as the above Italian Spanish comparison of false cognates shows. There are false cogantes between Portuguese and Spanish too, but not as many as between Italian and Spanish. For example, 90% of the time, the Portuguese meanings of words have the same meaning in Spanish.
Spanish and Italian are much closer than Italian and French
--"All the Romance languages derived from Latin, but over time they evolved differently. That is how flase cognates have come about. Over time, words in a language takes on a new meaning as the above Italian Spanish comparison of false cognates shows. There are false cogantes between Portuguese and Spanish too, but not as many as between Italian and Spanish. For example, 90% of the time, the Portuguese meanings of words have the same meaning in Spanish. "----
I wrote;
True, but also we can UNDERSTAND Italian way better then Portuguese. This is due to phonology of Italian and Spanish are basically the same (classical latin wise) While Portuguese has evolved it's phonology to a further sense. I think is why portuguese speakers understand us, better then us spanish speakers comprehend them, because of the Phonology. When are phonology is rather basic (in a sense) and their's is complex.
A spanish speaker can read portuguese, but hardly understand it when spoken.
A spanish speaker can read somewhat of Italian, but understand the language & it's basic elements when spoken.
{{{ Spanish is related to several languages in terms of phonology, grammar and orthography. Of these, Portuguese is perhaps one of the most similar in terms of major languages. However, Spanish is also closely related to Catalan, Asturian, Galician and several other Romance languages. Italian is similar enough to Spanish to make communication possible between native speakers of both languages. Spanish has fewer similarities with French and Romanian but shares strong ties due to strong Latin roots.}}}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language
I wrote;
True, but also we can UNDERSTAND Italian way better then Portuguese. This is due to phonology of Italian and Spanish are basically the same (classical latin wise) While Portuguese has evolved it's phonology to a further sense. I think is why portuguese speakers understand us, better then us spanish speakers comprehend them, because of the Phonology. When are phonology is rather basic (in a sense) and their's is complex.
A spanish speaker can read portuguese, but hardly understand it when spoken.
A spanish speaker can read somewhat of Italian, but understand the language & it's basic elements when spoken.
{{{ Spanish is related to several languages in terms of phonology, grammar and orthography. Of these, Portuguese is perhaps one of the most similar in terms of major languages. However, Spanish is also closely related to Catalan, Asturian, Galician and several other Romance languages. Italian is similar enough to Spanish to make communication possible between native speakers of both languages. Spanish has fewer similarities with French and Romanian but shares strong ties due to strong Latin roots.}}}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language
Does anyone here know Romanian? Ever since I saw the figures of both Spanish and Romanian being around 20% different from Latin, I've wanted to compare what route the two took away from latin.
JR Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:35 pm GMT
Does anyone here know Romanian? Ever since I saw the figures of both Spanish and Romanian being around 20% different from Latin, I've wanted to compare what route the two took away from latin.
----------------->>>>>
Perhaps it's the "semi-vast" vocabulary of arabic, etc. Spanish is 20% evolved from Latin.
Romanian is 23.5% evolved from Latin, because of the vast influence of "slavic, etc."
Hence, Spanish is MORE conversative then Romanian. here are the evolution from Classical & Vulgar Latin.
Sardinian (first) 8%
Italian (second) 12%
Spanish (third) 20%
Romanian(fourth) 23.5%
and so forthed
Does anyone here know Romanian? Ever since I saw the figures of both Spanish and Romanian being around 20% different from Latin, I've wanted to compare what route the two took away from latin.
----------------->>>>>
Perhaps it's the "semi-vast" vocabulary of arabic, etc. Spanish is 20% evolved from Latin.
Romanian is 23.5% evolved from Latin, because of the vast influence of "slavic, etc."
Hence, Spanish is MORE conversative then Romanian. here are the evolution from Classical & Vulgar Latin.
Sardinian (first) 8%
Italian (second) 12%
Spanish (third) 20%
Romanian(fourth) 23.5%
and so forthed
Aldo, you say that Spanish is closely related to Galician, but...Galician is the most closely related to Portuguese. In fact, Galego is a dialect of portuguese, and some Galicians even claim that Galego is Portuguese, but it has been heavily influenced by Spanish orthography.
Secondly, I find it perplexing that you say you hardly understand spoken Portuguese, when all the Spanish speaking I know (many of whom are professionals) say they have no trouble understanding spoken Portuguese at all. I'm not talking about 'street' Portuguese, but the language as it is spoken by educated Portuguese. There is a difference, and this is true of any language. I have known Spanish speaking people who were very hard to understand. But those few don't represent the majority. As such, I cannot conclude that Spanish is hard to understand on the basis of a handful individuals who were hard to understand. Nor should one conclude that just because a few Spanish speakers have trouble understanding Portuguese, that it must be the gospel truth that Portguese is unintelligible to Spanish speakers on the whole. If one is going to generalize, then they should at least do it when the numbers are there to support their claim.
Not everyone has the same ability to speak and understand other Romance languages. A person's level of education also greatly influences ones ability to comprehend another language.
Secondly, I find it perplexing that you say you hardly understand spoken Portuguese, when all the Spanish speaking I know (many of whom are professionals) say they have no trouble understanding spoken Portuguese at all. I'm not talking about 'street' Portuguese, but the language as it is spoken by educated Portuguese. There is a difference, and this is true of any language. I have known Spanish speaking people who were very hard to understand. But those few don't represent the majority. As such, I cannot conclude that Spanish is hard to understand on the basis of a handful individuals who were hard to understand. Nor should one conclude that just because a few Spanish speakers have trouble understanding Portuguese, that it must be the gospel truth that Portguese is unintelligible to Spanish speakers on the whole. If one is going to generalize, then they should at least do it when the numbers are there to support their claim.
Not everyone has the same ability to speak and understand other Romance languages. A person's level of education also greatly influences ones ability to comprehend another language.
hi guest,
thanks for pointing out the list of false friends between spanish and portuguese. i am currently learning portuguese and most of the time there is no problem but there can be confusion.
when i was learning spanish many years ago i trained myself to never say ano but año for year. now i have to say ano in portuguese and that just goes against the grain. lol
for most of the words you pointed out i think the main confusion would be in writing because while speaking things will be understood. if someone has fallen and i am telling the paramedic that he has a broken "osso" then i think he will know that i mean "hueso". there are several examples of this such as acceptar+aceitar. the same with crear+ to create and criar= to raise. many times i have heard these twp words pronounced exaclty the same by native spanish speakers. so there again the confusion would be cleared up between spanish and portuguese by the context. risco=riesgo. i think they would understand each other. i could go on and on. most of the examples you gave just have a slight spelling change to be the same in portuguese and spanish. but for beginnners, especially one not grouned in a latin language there can be confusion.
but i wanted to point out one thing. desevolver in spanish means to develop just like in portuguese. it can also mean to unwrap but it usually means to develop. depends on the context. is the same true in portuguese? can desenvolver mean to unwrap in portuguese?
thanks for pointing out the list of false friends between spanish and portuguese. i am currently learning portuguese and most of the time there is no problem but there can be confusion.
when i was learning spanish many years ago i trained myself to never say ano but año for year. now i have to say ano in portuguese and that just goes against the grain. lol
for most of the words you pointed out i think the main confusion would be in writing because while speaking things will be understood. if someone has fallen and i am telling the paramedic that he has a broken "osso" then i think he will know that i mean "hueso". there are several examples of this such as acceptar+aceitar. the same with crear+ to create and criar= to raise. many times i have heard these twp words pronounced exaclty the same by native spanish speakers. so there again the confusion would be cleared up between spanish and portuguese by the context. risco=riesgo. i think they would understand each other. i could go on and on. most of the examples you gave just have a slight spelling change to be the same in portuguese and spanish. but for beginnners, especially one not grouned in a latin language there can be confusion.
but i wanted to point out one thing. desevolver in spanish means to develop just like in portuguese. it can also mean to unwrap but it usually means to develop. depends on the context. is the same true in portuguese? can desenvolver mean to unwrap in portuguese?
Hi Chico. Yes, 'desenvolver' also means 'unwrap' in Portuguese. As I have said many times before, Spanish and Portuguese vocabulary is about 90% similar. These two language are mutually compatible both in writing and spoken. Also, the sentences are constructed more or less the same way in both languages. That in itself accounts for the very high level of mutual compatibility between both of these Romance langauges. Let's remember also that Portguese and Spanish were heavily influenced by 'Arabic'. The Arabic influence is virtually absent in all of the other Romance languages. The shared Iberian geography, an identical shared history, the same invasions by other cultures, all played a vital role in making Spanish and Portuguese, brother cultures and languages. Regards. Jorge.
Civis Romanus Sum : au lieu de dire des sottises dès que tes maigres "preuves" chiffrées tombent en ruine, tu ferais mieux de commencer par étudier ce sur quoi tu prétends pérorer.
Greg.
No offense but can you talk in english or understdable for all language?
By the way i think Civis Romanus Sum is right
No offense but can you talk in english or understdable for all language?
By the way i think Civis Romanus Sum is right
1/ Je n'utilise pas l'anglais sur ce forum pour des raisons que j'ai expliquées 200 fois : désaccord total avec la partition section monolingue / section multilingue. Si tu veux que je m'adresse à toi en anglais, il te faut venir sur www.unilang.org ou sur www.langcafe.net .
2/ Je ne pense pas que les exemples chiffrés de Civis Romanus Sum sont faux : ***J'EN SUIS SÛR*** ! Ces chiffres circulent régulièrement et soont le plus souvent mentionnés par des gens qui n'ont aucune idée de leur signification.
2/ Je ne pense pas que les exemples chiffrés de Civis Romanus Sum sont faux : ***J'EN SUIS SÛR*** ! Ces chiffres circulent régulièrement et soont le plus souvent mentionnés par des gens qui n'ont aucune idée de leur signification.
I understand perfectly being an italian written french so there's no problem for me to understand what you're saying. Come se io scrivessi italiano sono sicuro che mi capairesti ( as i think you would understand perfectly well me when writing in italian).
I've read the book published by Pei, i think that what is written is not totally wrong, in fact the french is distant from latin in the point of wiew of the phonology, while grammar is very close being similiar if not identical to italian one.
I've read the book published by Pei, i think that what is written is not totally wrong, in fact the french is distant from latin in the point of wiew of the phonology, while grammar is very close being similiar if not identical to italian one.
S.P.Q.R : l'étude de pei ne portait que sur la phonologie des ***VOYELLES TONIQUES***.
« L'on peut donner ici les résultats d'une étude menée par M. Pei en 1949, qui a comparé le degré d'évolution de diverses langues par rapport à leur langue-mère ; pour les langues romanes les plus importantes, SI L'ON NE CONSIDÈRE •••••••••QUE LES VOYELLE TONIQUES•••••••••, l'on obtient, par rapport au latin, les coefficients d'évolution suivants :
sarde : 8 % ;
italien : 12 % ;
castillan : 20 % ;
roumain : 23,5 % ;
occitan : 25 % ;
portugais : 31 % ;
français : 44 %.
L'on voit ainsi facilement le degré variable de conservatisme des langues romanes, la plus proche du latin phonétiquement (EN NE CONSIDÉRANT •••••••••QUE LES VOYELLES TONIQUES•••••••••) étant le sarde, la plus éloignée le français. »
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_romanes
« L'on peut donner ici les résultats d'une étude menée par M. Pei en 1949, qui a comparé le degré d'évolution de diverses langues par rapport à leur langue-mère ; pour les langues romanes les plus importantes, SI L'ON NE CONSIDÈRE •••••••••QUE LES VOYELLE TONIQUES•••••••••, l'on obtient, par rapport au latin, les coefficients d'évolution suivants :
sarde : 8 % ;
italien : 12 % ;
castillan : 20 % ;
roumain : 23,5 % ;
occitan : 25 % ;
portugais : 31 % ;
français : 44 %.
L'on voit ainsi facilement le degré variable de conservatisme des langues romanes, la plus proche du latin phonétiquement (EN NE CONSIDÉRANT •••••••••QUE LES VOYELLES TONIQUES•••••••••) étant le sarde, la plus éloignée le français. »
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_romanes
Per Greg:
Dimostraci, se è questo che intendi fare cercando di screditare le cifre di Pei e chi le cita, che il Francese è, che so.., la prima e più conservativa discendente del latino. Attenzione però perchè potresti suscitare l'ilarità generale.
Adieu
Per SPQR:
I perfectly agree with you about "in fact the french is distant from latin in the point of wiew of the phonology, while grammar is very close being similiar if not identical to italian one". But actually I think that we can say that italian-french grammars are largely similar but not really identical.
Only to be a bit pedantic, of course.
Dimostraci, se è questo che intendi fare cercando di screditare le cifre di Pei e chi le cita, che il Francese è, che so.., la prima e più conservativa discendente del latino. Attenzione però perchè potresti suscitare l'ilarità generale.
Adieu
Per SPQR:
I perfectly agree with you about "in fact the french is distant from latin in the point of wiew of the phonology, while grammar is very close being similiar if not identical to italian one". But actually I think that we can say that italian-french grammars are largely similar but not really identical.
Only to be a bit pedantic, of course.