Lexical similarities between French-Spanish-Italian

Guest   Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:27 pm GMT
" That's true fab, there are many similarities between written French and written Italian, but I still think that Italian is closer to Spanish because, while there may not be as many written similarities between the two as like with French, the spoken similarities are more than enough to make up the difference, considering that French has a *very* unique pronnounciation, very different from Italian. "


I particulary don't agree on this point. I tend to think that for a french speaker spoken Italian is often easier to catch than its writen form (as soon as take the attention to listen well).

Let's see with your own exemples :

"Que/Que/Che" French and Spanish writings are identic but Italian "Che" and Spanish "Que" sound identical.

"Qui/Quien/Chi", this time French and Italian words sound identical, Spanish no.

"Comunità." In French the main difference with the Italian word in the change of "i" with "au" and the "e" ending instead of "a". In Spanish the "t" sound is replaced by "d", and the sound "d" is added at the end (communidad)

"Polizia". the accentuation is very different from the spanish one. The french version just sound like the spanish one without "ia". "POLIS".

" Generare." There is a big difference with the spanish version is the sound "g", wich is completly different, wich is not the case in French. In french, as usual the sound difference lies in the ending of the word while the begining is very similar with the italian one.


I found some Italian sentences in a metod to illustrate what I want to say :

"Scuzi", the writing is not so similar but when prononce we have the feeling to hear "escusez" with an italian accentuation.

"Qual'e l'autobus", almost the same prononciation than "quel est l'autobus"

"la luna e bella", almost the same prononciation than "la lune est belle", different from Spanish "la luna esta bella". ("e"/"est") are prononced the same way in french and Italian, while spanish "esta/es" is different. and the spanish "ll" in "bella", make it sound very different while the french "belle" is almost the same sound than "bella".

"l'autobus non e troppo pieno" and "l'autobus n'est pas trop plein" seem writed quite differently, but spoken it is very easy to catch it.

"Chi e ? E ancora me?" "Qui s'est ? C'est encore moi" When heard it is much more similar than writed.

"...Allora, tu sai se lui ha bisogno di me oggi !" for a french ear it is almost the same sound than " Alors, tu sais si lui a besoin de moi aujourd'hui ! "; We could hardly say the same about the spanish "Entonces, Sabes si el me nesessita hoy !"

It is amazing that "Aujourd'hui" and "Oggi" sound so similar, it so different in writted form.

"tu ai una valigia e un pachetto da prendere ", when sopken it is almost the same sentence in French "tu as une valise et un paquet à prendre", while the writing could seem more different. This sentence is almost compeltly intelligible for a Spanish speaker : "Tienes una maleta y un paquete para tomar"

"Tutte le semane, il mercoledi, tu hai la possibilita di magiare da me" sounds almost exactly like
"toutes les semaines, le mercredi, tu as la possibilité de manger chez moi"
but quite different from
"todas las semanas, el miercoles, tienes la possibilidad de comer conmigo"

"voi avete un amico a roma" - "vous avez un ami à rome" when heard these seem very closer too.

"arrivo a Milano domani mattina" A spanish speaker would'nt have a clue what is that all about (llegaré a Milano manana en la manana), while for a french it is obvious "j'arrive à Milan demain matin"

The verbs "avere" and "avoir", very used are replaced by "tener" in a lot of cases in Spanish, which give very different sentences :

tu hai / tu as / tienes
voi avete/vous avez/teneis
etc.


etc. and there is a lot of other exemples in an Italian speech taht we catch much better wher heard than when read.
Tiffany   Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:57 pm GMT
Is that you Fab?

Italian corrections for what they are worth:

<<"Scuzi", the writing is not so similar but when prononce we have the feeling to hear "escusez" with an italian accentuation.>>

Scusi, not Scuzi.

<<"Qual'e l'autobus", almost the same prononciation than "quel est l'autobus">>

This sentence means "Which is the bus" - is this what you meant?

All of your 'e' to mean "is/est" should be è.

"Week" is "settimana", so in this respect the French "semaine" and Spanish "semana" are much closer.

<<"Tutte le semane, il mercoledi, tu hai la possibilita di magiare da me" sounds almost exactly like
"toutes les semaines, le mercredi, tu as la possibilité de manger chez moi"
but quite different from
"todas las semanas, el miercoles, tienes la possibilidad de comer conmigo" >>

Tutte le settimane, il mercoledì, tu hai la possibilità di mangiare con me.
Sergio   Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:29 pm GMT
Hi Tiffany,

As far as I know, the sense of "da me" in Italian corresponds to "at my place" in English, whereas the sense of "con me" translates as "with me".
I think that Guest was trying to express the first meaning, which makes sense with French "chez moi".
The problem is, that in Spanish there are not two different forms to express both ideas, unlease you say "en mi casa" to be more specific. But otherwise both situations are expressed with the very same words.
fab   Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:21 pm GMT
Ciao Tiffany

Si sono io

I thank you for the corrections, my "italian" is not good enough, I'm ashamed.

For the accents I knew, but I didn't know if everybody could see them correctly, so didon't writed them.

I'm sorry for "settimana", I knew this one... By the way i find the Italian word to be very etymologic and of clear meaning since we clearly recognise the "setti" prefix, meaning seven (days).

Grazie mille e buona notte ! (qui è l'ora di dormire !)
Tiffany   Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:33 pm GMT
Fab, sei tu un mal'cane. Non sentirsi in colpa per qualcosa.

Lege questo:

septimana-settimana-semana-semaine

wochentag-weekday
Tiffany   Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:29 am GMT
^ The above Tiffany is impersonating me. She also speaks bad Italian.

Sergio, yes "da me" does mean, "at my place" but I didn't think that was what fab was trying was trying to say. Of course, I didn't realize what "chez" meant then. I do now.
fab   Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:05 am GMT
"chez" in french can seem strange at first sight, but when you know the origin it is very logical.

Nowaday "Chez" means "at home of..." like in expression "chez moi".
In reality it just comes from "casa", but very tranformed :
Casa - Case - Chase - Chaz - Chez
so, "chez moi" is more or less the equivalent of "a casa mia" (at my home)
Sergio   Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:13 pm GMT
Salut Fab,

Merci pour cette explication!!!.. quelquefois c'est vraiment une surpise comment certain paroles apparement inconnues partagent-elles des origins si communs!!!!

et pardon pour mon mauvais français. :-)

Tiffany, after the explanation of Fab, I think we was expressing the correct comparison: "da me"="chez mois"="conmigo"="at my place"
Tiffany   Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:20 pm GMT
My Spanish is rusty. I saw the "con" and thought "with me". I had figured "chez" meant "with", but thank you for the explanation.
greg   Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:38 pm GMT
Fr <chez> est issu de La <casa> comme le disait fab.

D'ailleurs <chaise>, <chiese> & <chese> voulaient dire {maison} en ancien français. Voir aussi AF <chesel> & <casal>.

En ancien français, pour dire <chez> on utilisait : <ches> <chés> <chiez> <cheux> <enchés> <en chies> <achés> <a chies> etc.
ERICK   Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:42 pm GMT
Yo diria qué el francés es mcho mas difficil que el español pero , el español es mucho mas difficil qué el inglés devido a las conjugaciones del verbo ya qué el ingles carece de conjugaciones es mucho mas facil aprenderlo.
Guest   Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:07 pm GMT
Para mi el lenguage mas dificil de aprender como native del ingles fue el español devido aprender el uso coreecto de FUE que en inglés sencillamentte no existe ej:

Yo fui una , fuera,sea,hubiese
Tu fuistes ,fueras,seas,hubieses
Vos: fuistes ,fuistes,seas,huvieses
ella,el,ello fue,fuera,sea,ha,hubieses
nosotros fuimos,fueramos ,seamos,hubiesemos
vosotros(ni c)
Ellos ellas: fueron, fueran,sean,hubiesen
ustedes fueron,fueron,sean,hubiesen

Why spanish grammar is to difficult making sense using the right verb conjugated can anybody tell me WHAT IS THE GREAT DIFFERENT BETWEEN YO SEA , YO FUI , YO FUERA , YO ESTABA OH MY GOD EVERYTHING MEANS I WAS IN ENGLISH EXCEPT YO SEA ITS SUDJUNTIVE I AM SCARED START TO TALK ABOUT IT , i would say spanish is hardest language to learn becuase i did not have this grammar problem with french or portuguesse! PLEASE SPANISH PEOPLE DO NOT SPEAK SO FASTER OH MY GOD PLEASE!!!!
Aldvs   Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:22 am GMT
Yes, subjunctive is quite complicated in Spanish and it's hard to explain or to set clear rules. The thing is more complicated with "ser" (to be) and "ir" (to go) since they share some forms. The difference is in the context.

Yo fui un musico (I was a musician)
Yo fui a dormir (I went to sleep) Always "fui/fue/fueron/fuimos" next word is "a" when the meaning is "to go"

The basic conjugation of verb "ser" (to be) in first person is:

Yo fui (I was)
Yo soy (I am)
Yo sere ( I will be)

These are used in sentences with a well defined tense:

You fui rico (I was rich) (past)
Yo soy rico (I am rich) (present)
Yo sere rico (I will be rich) (future)

Now let's talk about hypotetic situations without a specific tense :

Si yo FUERA rico (If I were rich) Note there is not a defined tense so the prior conjugations are not used. The verbs end with "RA" : estubieRA (were), fueRA (went/were), comieRA (ate), durmieRA (slept), vieRA (saw)...etc.

But the sentences : Si yo fui rico, Si yo soy rico, Si yo sere rico
are valid too but the next word must be "entonces" (then).

Si yo fui rico entonces ahora yo soy pobre. (If I was rich then now I'm poor)

Si yo soy rico entonces usted es el Papa. (If I am rich then you are the Pope)

Si yo sere rico entonces yo debo ganar primero la loteria. (If I will be rich, then I must first win the lottery.)

Of course this is just a small part of this matter.
Guest   Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:23 am GMT
" i did not have this grammar problem with french or portuguesse! "

The French grammar is as much complicated as spanish one. The difficulties of conjugations, the tenses, etc. follow very similar rules in both languages, and both languages have the most useful verbs as the most irregular...
Luis Zalot   Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:59 am GMT
Hola, a todos!

El verbo -ser- es considerado a veces el mas complicado del Espanol. De todos modos hay confusion de vez en cuando porque es normal entre lenguas.

Tomemos esto como ejemplo--->>>>


Latin:

SVM (Note: "v" is pronounced as "u")

Non-finite forms:
Present infinitive: ESSE
Future infinitive: FORE (FVTVRVM ESSE)
Future participle: FVTVRVS
Perfect infinitive: FVISSE

-Indicative-:
Present: SVM, ES, EST, SVMVS, ESTIS, SVNT

Imperfect: ERAM, ERAS, ERAT, ERAMVS, ERATIS, ERANT

Future: ERO, ERIS, ERIT, ERIMVS, ERITIS, ERVNT

Perfect: FVI, FVISTI, FVIT, FVIMVS, FVISTIS, FVERVNT

Pluperfect: FVERAM, FVERAS, FVERAT, FVERAMVS, FVERATIS, FVERANT

Future anterior: FVERO, FVERIS, FVERIT, FVERIMVS, FVERITVS, FVERINT

&

-Subjunctive-:
Present: SIM, SIS, SIT, SIMVS, SITIS, SINT

Imperfect: ESSEM, ESSES, ESSET, ESSEMVS, ESSETIS, ESSENT

Perfect: FVERIM, FVERIS, FVERIT, FVERIMVS, FVERITIS

Pluperfect: FVISSEM, FVISSES, FVISSET, FVISSEMVS, FVISSETIS, FVISSENT


------------------------------------------------------------------------

STO

Non-finite forms:
Present infinitive: STARE
Future participle: STATVRVS
Perfect infinitive: STETISSE
Gerund: STANDVM
Supine: STATV(M)
Present participle: STANS

Indicative:
Present: STO, STAS, STAT, STAMVS, STATIS, STANT

Imperfect: STABAM, STABAS, STABAT, STABAMVS, STABATIS, STABANT

Future: STABO, STABIS, STABIT, STABIMVS, STABITIS, STABVNT

Perfect: STETI, STETISTI, STETIT, STETIMVS, STETISTIS, STETERVNT

Pluperfect: STETERAM, STETERAS, STETERAT, STETERAMVS, STETERATIS, STETERANT

Future anterior: STETERO, STETERIS, STETERIT, STETERIMVS, STETERITIS, STETERINT


&


-Subjunctive-:
Present: STEM, STES, STET, STEMVS, STETIS, STENT

Imperfect: STAREM, STARES, STARET, STAREMVS, STARETIS, STARENT

Perfect: STETERIM, STETERIS, STETERIT, STETERIMVS, STETERITIS, STETERINT,

Pluperfect: STETISSEM, STETISSES, STETISSET, STETISSEMVS, STETISSETIS, STETISSENT,

Imperative: STA, STATE


----------------------------------------------------------------->>>

Spanish:

SER:

Non-finite
Infinitive ser
Gerund siendo
Past participle sido

-Indicative- {{yo tú él nosotros vosotros ellos }}

Present soy eres es somos sois son

Imperfect era eras era éramos erais eran

Preterite fui fuiste fue fuimos fuisteis fueron

Future seré serás será seremos seréis serán

Conditional {{yo tú él nosotros vosotros ellos}}
sería serías sería seríamos seríais serían


&


-Subjunctive- {{yo tú él nosotros vosotros ellos }}

Present sea seas sea seamos seáis sean

Imperfect 1 fuera fueras fuera fuéramos fuerais fueran

Imperfect 2 fuese fueses fuese fuésemos fueseis fuesen

Future fuere fueres fuere fuéremos fuereis fueren

Imperative {{{tú usted vosotros ustedes }}
sé sea sed sean

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

ESTAR:

Non-finite
Infinitive estar
Gerund estando
Past participle estado

-Indicative-: {{yo tú él nosotros vosotros ellos}}

Present estoy estás está estamos estáis están

Imperfect estaba estabas estaba estábamos estabais estaban

Preterite estuve estuviste estuvo estuvimos estuvisteis estuvieron

Future estaré estarás estará estaremos estaréis estarán

Conditional {{yo tú él nosotros vosotros ellos}}
estaría estarías estaría estaríamos estaríais estarían


&


-Subjunctive-: {{yo tú él nosotros vosotros ellos}}

Present esté estés esté estemos estéis estén

Imperfect 1 estuviera estuvieras estuviera estuviéramos estuvierais estuvieran

Imperfect 2 estuviese estuvieses estuviese estuviésemos estuvieseis estuviesen

Future estuviere estuvieres estuviere estuviéremos estuviereis estuvieren

Imperative† {{tú usted vosotros ustedes}}
está (estate) esté (estese) estad (estaos) estén (estense