Foreigners in England/France

Paul   Wednesday, June 16, 2004, 18:48 GMT
Hi Mac

I agree
You can't read too much into temporary trends. Anything can be temporary. Maybe 100 years later we can say what was significant, long-lasting.

A closer insight into the nature of a countries culture (it's customs, virtues, honour system, rituals, etc) at play is a much better indication of what's to come.
Might Mick   Thursday, June 17, 2004, 06:45 GMT
"Well yes, but that's because the Protestants were either driven out of France, forced (i.e. tortured) into conversion, or massacred by the Catholics."
- Le massacre de la St Barthélemy.
nic   Thursday, June 17, 2004, 08:40 GMT

Yes but it means 2 things, french still being catholics ; french are not enough interested in religion to adopt 1 or another 1. French (with north African origins) are less and less interested in muslim or something else, especially women. I don’t think French will become muslims, French are mixed with north Africans since a very long time (middle age), some cities in south have in fact a name with Arabic origins, but they never became muslims.

Might Mick,

Le massacre de la Saint Barthélémy is 1 thing, there has been the Dragonades in the south especially Les Cévennes (mountains) were protestants were forced to conversion or killed. The protestants who survived established especially in Nîmes, Nîmes is the most protestant city in France.
Might Mick   Thursday, June 17, 2004, 09:16 GMT
Well we are an exception to the rule considering the vast majority of Christians in France are Catholic - 95% I believe.
Might Mick   Thursday, June 17, 2004, 09:30 GMT
My point being,
Not the fact that there were and still are Protestants... but that there are so few Protestants today, because there were so many in the past - from the Catholic perspective.
nic   Thursday, June 17, 2004, 12:00 GMT
What i mean is, it's not because there was more and more protestants, a,d it's not because there was lot, France became protestant. It stayed catholic. So i don't think, muslim will grow up in France. Especially, when you think about the fact protestantism and catholicism are closer in comparaison of musulmanism. Musulmanism is far away, when you know what happened to protestants, imagine how musulmanism is interpreted. It’s not because people in France use to go less and less to church, their culture is no more catholic.
Might Mick   Thursday, June 17, 2004, 13:04 GMT
"What i mean is, it's not because there was more and more protestants, a,d it's not because there was lot, France became protestant. It stayed catholic" (??)
I didn't understand that paragraph... But it stayed Catholic, facilitated by the annihilation of Protestantism because it rivaled Catholicism.

I didn't really understand the rest...
Yes, France still sees itself as a Western/Christian nation because of its heritage, even though it's constitutionally declared as secular and far fewer people go to church. But if more and more of its "other" citizens demand the infrastructure (E.g. houses of God) necessary for their practices (E.g. prayer rituals), how can a government deny its tax payers their rights/privileges? So things would have to change.
Paul   Thursday, June 17, 2004, 13:52 GMT
I think that what Nic is trying to say is that mild Catholicism has become part of mainstream French culture, and the people are not so religous that they would want to change the status quo. The Holidays and customs of Burial (Sacrements?) and other life events are engrained in the National consciousness. The various Religious life events pervade regular life outside of the Church.

Like in England, everybody is considered Church of England (Anglican Protestant) by default.

Regards, Paul
Nic   Thursday, June 17, 2004, 14:16 GMT
Might mick,

paul said it perfectly for me when he said : "Like in England, everybody is considered Church of England (Anglican Protestant) by default'

It does mean all the people do not have the right to practice the religion they want to. Synagogues, churches, temples and moskées are present in France. But unconsciensly french are catholics in their mind. For example, i have been baptised, my parents did it just because to not disagree my grand mother, it's the case of most of the french. Another example, the weddings, why do people in France go to church when in their usuall life they never go to church. It simply means the fact most of the french stay catholics. Do not forget the fact the pope used to live in France in the past (Avignon : La cité des papes). The 1st european king to be declared christian was Charlemangne.). So, i don't think France will become musulman or anything else in the future. Especially with neighboors like spanish ans italians. Can you tell me which latin country is protestant : portugal, Spain, Roumania, Italy, France?
All these countries have benn in their history in strong contacts with north african cultures, there's not one of them which has been influenced in her religion, in fact that's the opposite, look at Italy and Spain.
Nic   Thursday, June 17, 2004, 14:22 GMT
sorry, i use my keyboard too fast :

instead of "It does mean all the people do not have the right to practice"

it's "It does ""not""mean all the people do not have the right to practice
Might Mick   Friday, June 18, 2004, 06:16 GMT
Hi Nic,

Of course you might be right. But then again, it parallels that other discussion where you said you believed the French language will disappear. The 2 coincide somewhat: i.e. French is as likely to disappear as France is as likely to become Islamic. Don't you think? :)

I mentioned France's heritage was Christian or Catholic really, just as England's is Anglican...
Though I never did say that I thought France would become an Islamic nation. Just that the trend is moving it toward an unprecedented demographic change. And yes, this change would probably mean a different France. This couldn't happen as you described to Spain, Italy, Greece and France in the past, but today in socialist France by virtue of our Western liberalism almost anything is allowed to happen. Wouldn't you agree? Working hard at preserving these ideals makes it a 2 edged sword.

As for foreseeing things, all we have are our impressions and statistics to go by. My impressions as a traveller are different from yours. Mine are like sweeping snapshots, cold hard figures, the French media (which play up these issues such as integration and the HLMs) and impressions of others. As an inhabitant, yours are interactive because you're there living it. That doesn't mean to say that it narrows your objectivity but that our differing perspectives bias our impressions.
nic   Friday, June 18, 2004, 07:54 GMT
Hi Might Mick,

Og course things are changing, but it seems you are making a confusion between being north african and being muslim. I think you know you can be north african but not being muslim, like you can be spanish but not practicing catholicism.
Yes things change, but it’s a constant evolution. French are mixed since a long long time ago. There are and there has been all the time mixing people, as I said, north african are in France since many centuries. I don’t see why some people are talking about a mix between french and north afircans. Because, like every french knows, a pure french blood does not exist and has never existed. 1st reason is french are the result from a mix between gallo and romans (+ greeks), after that germans population and after that arabians. What I mean is, the “africanisation of french did not begin today, it began many centuries ago. French did not became muslim bacause of that, and in fact that’s the opposite. If you look at the corsicans and the sicilians, who have been all of their history in contact with north africans. They became more catholic than ever.
That’s logic, every latin contry is catholic (even roumanians) for the reason that’s a part of latin identity and community. Being latin and protestant or muslim is impossible, being latin is only being catholic. That’s why (it’s unconscious) a perfect muslim is different of a french, an italian or what ever you want. Because he cannot be integrated to a latin community which a different point of view.

So when you say (or when you read ) french will be muslim in 50 years, it’s impossible. For the reason, if it was the case, 60 millions of french have to change of identity, they must simply abandon their latinism to adopt another point of view. Education, politic should change etc, impossible on this way. Especially when oyu know the french mentality and how it is important to be recognized as latins.

You said “at socialist France”, France is not socialist, and has been traditionnally on the right (even with Mitterand).
The last 5 presidents de la république there has been in France :

De Gaule right
Pompidou right
Giscard d’Estaing right
Miterrand left (he was in fact on the right nad has collaborated with fachists during the war)
Chirac right

So I don’t understand why you are talking about socialist France?

Hi Paul,

Gaffe has the same meaning in french “Houla, j’ai fait une gaffe!” Oops, I’ve made a mystake!”

Can we say Belgium is bilingual, les “Flammands” speak flemmish and dn not speak french, The Wallons speak french and do not speak flammish. At list they hate each others. I remember when I was in a train in flemmish part of belgium. You directly feel a pressure when people hear you to speak french, people do not like you and you can see it. Of course it’s the same I guess when you are a flemmish speaker in Wallonie (french speaking side).
Swiss is different bacause there are not 2 languages but 3!!! The most spoken is german, after that french and after that italian. I don’t think german speaker speaker french or french speaker speak german….

Hi Damian,

I only know 1 country in the world who’s got 2 “hymns” (can we say it like that).
Flower of Scotland
Scotland the brave

I think this is funny, is it one for protestant and one for catholics or it has monthing to see with it?
nic   Friday, June 18, 2004, 07:59 GMT
Might Mick,

When i say french will disappear, i don't you understood what i wanted to mean, french will disappear like polish, german, italian, spanish, english and many others will. It's just a question of evolution and logic. the question of capitalism, capitalism, liberalism does no produce anything today, just destroy every culturen, even the american one. That's what i mean when i say french disappear, but it will disappeear like all the Occident, the England, USA, France, Germany and all the others will.
nic   Friday, June 18, 2004, 09:58 GMT
some mystakes "i don't think you understood"
Damian   Friday, June 18, 2004, 10:09 GMT

You are correct......there is some division in football and chants based on religion which I think is so sad. That is one reason why I have lapsed in my faith (brought up a Catholic) but I now hate the way religion is at the bottom of so much division and hurt between people. We see it every day in one form or another. It doesn't make sense to me any more. Sorry.