Zatsu:
"Compared to EP, Galician speak THAT clearly? Talking about being biased.
I'm not kidding when I say EP has more sounds and they're certainly used, even if you can't recognize that.
You're right in one part, BP is not a deviation of EP. "
Well, I can't prove you that I understood Galician perfectly...The vowels don't drop out ...
Actually I was studying about European Portuguese and recognize that it has more vowels (19 vowels if I'm not wrong). My question is: Where are these vowels when people speak? Can you give some examples?
I remember the first time I hear "please". It's something like "sachavôr" (Se faz favor)?. I don't know about other vowels but "e" among certain consonants just disappears like "percebes" (prcebs), "diferente" (difrente)...
"However, it's funny how you speak about Galician now (when you didn't even know they existed a few days back), that's because someone mentioned Portuguese derivated from Galician. "
Just because I didn't know something then that doesn't mean I can't try to learn it and use as my argument. I just went through the chapter on "galego-português" so that my jugdment won't be based on other people's opinions or the few Portuguese people I've met. I'm trying to figure out what kind of Portuguese got to Brazil in 1500 since PE had a lot of influence from Spanish and French and the beginning of the XIV century.
According to "História da Língua Portuguesa":
"Por agora basta ressaltar que durante todo o período compreendido entre o começo do século XIII e meados do século XIV, bem depois, por conseguinte, do fim da reconquista, a língua comum é esse galego-português nascido no norte."
If this was the language taken to Brazil (Theoretically), don't you think that due to PE having taken another route and developed differently from PB there's the possibility that PB is closer to Galician? At least that can be true about the "carioca" dialect because the imperial family came to Rio de Janeiro in 1808.
<<With the exception of not so educated Portuguese bakers, who have been in Brazil for years I haven't met many and, to be honest, don't have much interest in talking to them, specially if they "think" they're superior in any aspect...>>
Judging from some statements, the only person who acts superior here is you.
The not so educated Portuguese bakers were poor but certainly hardworking. (BTW, who can badmouth Portuguese cuisine? Surely not Brazilians!)
"I'm sure you haven't read the subject of the sentence. I said that PERSONALLY I didn't meet educated Portuguese people but I'm not saying they're ignorant. My point is that I can't judge PE based on not so educated people just like some people in this topic based their opinions based on Brazilians they me (Who probably aren't so educated, just like most people I've met in Japan. Of course I also met people like me who came to study)
"Strange thing that today major companies in Brazil are in fact Portuguese and include electricity, water, phone, roads, concrete, agriculture, cattle, etc., and are not just about profit either.
As I told you I was quoting the people I met and not trying to ridicule the Portuguese because calling them "burros" is what I consider "burro".
"Let me add that Brazilian in Portugal aren't from the highest layer of the Brazilian society either. Oh, wait ! Everyone in Brazil is highly educated... "
Like aforesaid
"You must feel proud. "
I'm not because the point here is the language and not the people, from which I haven't met many and sincerely think that won't change because I'm in Japan.
"Actually, no one is asking you to adapt to anything, just to act less superior. "
I'm not asking anyone to adapt but just am defending the language that some people judge inferior but haven't showed any proof for that.
"Good to know that you "at least" like Finland and recognize their good education, one of the finest in the world. Hopefully you're not comparing them to Portuguese nor Portugal, especially since you've never been there and haven't met that many Portuguese in you're life."
Exactly. Most people from Finland I've met (There was a Finnish school close to where I live) were very polite and treated me with respect. Finland is for sure one of the countries I want to visit along with Sweden because I have good Swede friends in Japan. Most Europeans I've met until now treated me very well, including the Portuguese teachers I met at the university where I used to teach.
"Why are you assuming that that person is Portuguese? "
I'm not and that's not necessary because the object of comparison is PE and PB and that's what I'm interested in. I'm not attacking the Portuguese.
"Either way, you're forgetting that European Portuguese IS the standard in Africa and is considered highclass for political and social reasons. Africa is probably the one place where Brazil is NOT the standard for Portuguese. "
In case you've read my last posting you'll realize that's true about the written language, according to "Paul Teyssier" (About Angola):
"Acontece com muita freqüencia que uma palavra angolana se encontra no português do Brasil, seja com a mesma forma e mesmo sentido, seja com variações morfológicas ou semânticas. ex: cochilar, caçula, moleque, cubata, cafuso (mestiço em geral , no Brasil mestiço de negro e índio), cazumbi (no Brasil zumbi). É difícil saber em que medida essas coincidências se explicam por uma origem comum, ou pelo retorno do Brasil para a África de algumas dessas palavras. Se às semelhanças de vocabulário acrescentarmos as identidades sintáticas, como uma grande liberdade dos pronomes átonos ou o emprego da construção eu vi ele por vi-o, não podemos de deixar de surpreender-nos pelas analogias que existem entre o português de Angola e o do Brasil."
Now I ask you the same question I asked the disguised "guest" who ignored my posting: Do you really think that African Portuguese, specially Angola is closer to PE? That may be true in the written form but the reason why I understood the youtube with Angolans speaking must be because most slaves who went to Brazil came from Angola, Moçambique and Benin. The resemblance isn't only racial.
"Brazilian Portuguese, besides the number of speakers, is good for foreigners to learn because it's the simplest version, but you can't expect other Portuguese dialects to go for it just like that.
East Timor learn European Portuguese in school, even though Brazilian orthography is also accepted."
You're making the same mistake some made before by mixing "spoken" and "written" language because Brazil is a HUGE country and there's no standard for spoken language, even though Rio de Janeiro Portuguese was a candidate for that last century. If you can prove me that written PE is superior to PB I'll stop debating. Until now I've only seen biases debates and no argument with the exception of "Brazilians I've met" and that kind of argument. Also, the examples I've seen reflect only the spoken language and I don't even know from which region in Brazil.
Back to my example with the Portuguese I've met in Brazil, I could say that PE is inferior to PB easily if I get the language spoken by them and compare it with the grammar of written PB.
Percebes?
|
