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Are Portuguese and Brazilian the same language?
<<French and Italian are not mutually intelligible for example. That is one of the reasons why they are considered different languages, but if Galician an Portuguese are mutually inteligible and also share the same syntax, morphology and rough the same vocabulary, what is the reason why they are different? Whatever it is, then the Brazilians can say the same about Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese.>>
Yeah, just for example but, as I said, Portuguese and Spanish are mutually intelligible, Spanish and Italian as well (I saw it before my own eyes). I can at least read any of those language just fine.
I wasn't the one who made the 2 languages different, I'm not the one saying so, nor do I know Galician well enough to point out the exact differences, but those exist in spelling, phonology, grammar rules... The usual.
The main difference between BP and EP is the accent and that's not a surprise or unexpected.
Brazilians can say whatever they want, but then again, I'm not making things up, claiming anything or the one who decided their official language.
The thing with Brazilians is, that they don't like calling their language "Portuguese" that's why they try really hard to make it different from that of Portugal, so they can call it just "Brazilian".
Brazilians are a cross of monkeys and humans, sod don't expect they to speak proper Portuguese.
Zatsu wrote: "...Judging from some statements, the only person who acts superior here is you. The not so educated Portuguese bakers were poor but certainly hardworking. Let me add that Brazilian in Portugal aren't from the highest layer of the Brazilian society either..."
I live in an european country other than Portugal. I must say that Zatsu's statement also reflects the situation of the majority of brazilians living in other european countries. They come from the poor strata of the brazilian society, and due to their low level of education they have problems to find a job and obtain a residence permit in Western Europe. Therefore they engage in menial activities. However, despite of their situation here, they try to stay in Western Europe at all costs.
Zatsu wrote: "Africa is probably the one place where Brazil is NOT the standard for Portuguese. Brazilian Portuguese, besides the number of speakers, is good for foreigners to learn because it's the simplest version."
Not only Africa.
The Brazilian Language does not have any relevance in Europe or Asia (I am not saying that Portuguese has any relevance in those continents!). The Brazilian Language is only important If you plan to live in Brazil, because the majority of brazilians are not fluent in English.
The Brazilian Language is no simple at all. We have already discussed enough about its messy, unlogical grammar. The fact that their language is spoken by almost 186.757.608 million (Wikipedia, 2008 estimate) haters of Portugal (lol), does not entitle it to be a standard for any Portuguese variant (european, african or asian).
Portuguese and Spanish are mutually intelligible, Spanish and Italian as well
Portuguese and Spanish are not mutually intelligible. Brazilians do not understand Portuguese!
Spanish and Italian are definitely not mutually intelligible.
Blanka: "Brazilians are a cross of monkeys and humans, sod don't expect they to speak proper Portuguese."
What should we think of you lowbrow!
I meant Zatsu wrote: "Portuguese and Spanish are mutually intelligible, Spanish and Italian as well."
Portuguese and Spanish are not mutually intelligible. Brazilians do not understand Portuguese!
Spanish and Italian are definitely not mutually intelligible.
Italian and Spanish are not as close to each other as Spanish and Portuguese, despite phonetically Italian may sound more similar to Spanish. Once you make European Portuguese to sound more like Spanish you basically have Brazilan Portuguese
Zatsu:
"Compared to EP, Galician speak THAT clearly? Talking about being biased.
I'm not kidding when I say EP has more sounds and they're certainly used, even if you can't recognize that.
You're right in one part, BP is not a deviation of EP. "
Well, I can't prove you that I understood Galician perfectly...The vowels don't drop out ...
Actually I was studying about European Portuguese and recognize that it has more vowels (19 vowels if I'm not wrong). My question is: Where are these vowels when people speak? Can you give some examples?
I remember the first time I hear "please". It's something like "sachavôr" (Se faz favor)?. I don't know about other vowels but "e" among certain consonants just disappears like "percebes" (prcebs), "diferente" (difrente)...
"However, it's funny how you speak about Galician now (when you didn't even know they existed a few days back), that's because someone mentioned Portuguese derivated from Galician. "
Just because I didn't know something then that doesn't mean I can't try to learn it and use as my argument. I just went through the chapter on "galego-português" so that my jugdment won't be based on other people's opinions or the few Portuguese people I've met. I'm trying to figure out what kind of Portuguese got to Brazil in 1500 since PE had a lot of influence from Spanish and French and the beginning of the XIV century.
According to "História da Língua Portuguesa":
"Por agora basta ressaltar que durante todo o período compreendido entre o começo do século XIII e meados do século XIV, bem depois, por conseguinte, do fim da reconquista, a língua comum é esse galego-português nascido no norte."
If this was the language taken to Brazil (Theoretically), don't you think that due to PE having taken another route and developed differently from PB there's the possibility that PB is closer to Galician? At least that can be true about the "carioca" dialect because the imperial family came to Rio de Janeiro in 1808.
<<With the exception of not so educated Portuguese bakers, who have been in Brazil for years I haven't met many and, to be honest, don't have much interest in talking to them, specially if they "think" they're superior in any aspect...>>
Judging from some statements, the only person who acts superior here is you.
The not so educated Portuguese bakers were poor but certainly hardworking. (BTW, who can badmouth Portuguese cuisine? Surely not Brazilians!)
"I'm sure you haven't read the subject of the sentence. I said that PERSONALLY I didn't meet educated Portuguese people but I'm not saying they're ignorant. My point is that I can't judge PE based on not so educated people just like some people in this topic based their opinions based on Brazilians they me (Who probably aren't so educated, just like most people I've met in Japan. Of course I also met people like me who came to study)
"Strange thing that today major companies in Brazil are in fact Portuguese and include electricity, water, phone, roads, concrete, agriculture, cattle, etc., and are not just about profit either.
As I told you I was quoting the people I met and not trying to ridicule the Portuguese because calling them "burros" is what I consider "burro".
"Let me add that Brazilian in Portugal aren't from the highest layer of the Brazilian society either. Oh, wait ! Everyone in Brazil is highly educated... "
Like aforesaid
"You must feel proud. "
I'm not because the point here is the language and not the people, from which I haven't met many and sincerely think that won't change because I'm in Japan.
"Actually, no one is asking you to adapt to anything, just to act less superior. "
I'm not asking anyone to adapt but just am defending the language that some people judge inferior but haven't showed any proof for that.
"Good to know that you "at least" like Finland and recognize their good education, one of the finest in the world. Hopefully you're not comparing them to Portuguese nor Portugal, especially since you've never been there and haven't met that many Portuguese in you're life."
Exactly. Most people from Finland I've met (There was a Finnish school close to where I live) were very polite and treated me with respect. Finland is for sure one of the countries I want to visit along with Sweden because I have good Swede friends in Japan. Most Europeans I've met until now treated me very well, including the Portuguese teachers I met at the university where I used to teach.
"Why are you assuming that that person is Portuguese? "
I'm not and that's not necessary because the object of comparison is PE and PB and that's what I'm interested in. I'm not attacking the Portuguese.
"Either way, you're forgetting that European Portuguese IS the standard in Africa and is considered highclass for political and social reasons. Africa is probably the one place where Brazil is NOT the standard for Portuguese. "
In case you've read my last posting you'll realize that's true about the written language, according to "Paul Teyssier" (About Angola):
"Acontece com muita freqüencia que uma palavra angolana se encontra no português do Brasil, seja com a mesma forma e mesmo sentido, seja com variações morfológicas ou semânticas. ex: cochilar, caçula, moleque, cubata, cafuso (mestiço em geral , no Brasil mestiço de negro e índio), cazumbi (no Brasil zumbi). É difícil saber em que medida essas coincidências se explicam por uma origem comum, ou pelo retorno do Brasil para a África de algumas dessas palavras. Se às semelhanças de vocabulário acrescentarmos as identidades sintáticas, como uma grande liberdade dos pronomes átonos ou o emprego da construção eu vi ele por vi-o, não podemos de deixar de surpreender-nos pelas analogias que existem entre o português de Angola e o do Brasil."
Now I ask you the same question I asked the disguised "guest" who ignored my posting: Do you really think that African Portuguese, specially Angola is closer to PE? That may be true in the written form but the reason why I understood the youtube with Angolans speaking must be because most slaves who went to Brazil came from Angola, Moçambique and Benin. The resemblance isn't only racial.
"Brazilian Portuguese, besides the number of speakers, is good for foreigners to learn because it's the simplest version, but you can't expect other Portuguese dialects to go for it just like that.
East Timor learn European Portuguese in school, even though Brazilian orthography is also accepted."
You're making the same mistake some made before by mixing "spoken" and "written" language because Brazil is a HUGE country and there's no standard for spoken language, even though Rio de Janeiro Portuguese was a candidate for that last century. If you can prove me that written PE is superior to PB I'll stop debating. Until now I've only seen biases debates and no argument with the exception of "Brazilians I've met" and that kind of argument. Also, the examples I've seen reflect only the spoken language and I don't even know from which region in Brazil.
Back to my example with the Portuguese I've met in Brazil, I could say that PE is inferior to PB easily if I get the language spoken by them and compare it with the grammar of written PB.
Percebes?
Sorry Zatsu, I forgot to put my nick. But I'm not afraid of debating and sharing my views!!
Thanks for the debate!!
それじゃ！
"The Brazilian Language is no simple at all. We have already discussed enough about its messy, unlogical grammar. The fact that their language is spoken by almost 186.757.608 million (Wikipedia, 2008 estimate) haters of Portugal (lol), does not entitle it to be a standard for any Portuguese variant (european, african or asian)."
You must be the person who said that Brazilian grammar is messy (You didn't discuss it, though). If you really mean it, please show it using the language for the WRITTEN language. If you want to talk about the spoken language, please state which dialect you're talking about and with what you're comparing(Stating educational level and sex of the informant), otherwise you can compare a language spoken by a not so educated person from Brazil with someone from Portugal and get an excellent result. No matter what you do, please use a fair standard to compare.
Also, how about your views on IMPERATIVE in Brazilian grammar?
By the way, are you Portuguese? Even writing biased things and, on top of that, use wikipedia for backing your argument, you can't make me hate the Portuguese.(Hating 10 million people is a little tough...rsss)
Cheers
p.s Use a nickname when you post, unless you are afraid to show who you are and evade the debate.
"The not so educated Portuguese bakers were poor but certainly hardworking. (BTW, who can badmouth Portuguese cuisine? Surely not Brazilians!) "
I'm not saying that Portuguese bakers are lazy because I LOVED the bread from "Padaria da dona Maria" close to my house in Rio de Janeiro.
They are really hardworking but their language isn't probably the most educated and definitely I won't compare it with standard Brazilian grammar.
Wow, it's 17:16 and almost time to a "cafezinho"...
Quoting JC : «You're making the same mistake some made before by mixing "spoken" and "written" language because Brazil is a HUGE country and there's no standard for spoken language, even though Rio de Janeiro Portuguese was a candidate for that last century. If you can prove me that written PE is superior to PB I'll stop debating.»
What do you mean "written PB"? In its more formal level it's absolutely the same language (with a few, superficial differences, that made origin to different norms of the same language). In the past I debunked here quite a few defensors of "Brazillian language" by simple copypasting texts by Perini and other's: they write about the idiossincracies of spoken Portuguese in Brazil, writing in excelent Portuguese (tout court, no PB nor PE); this fact speaks for itself.
In lower levels of language (informal, familiar, slam), and in regional variations, there's increasing divergence from the higher, urban, classical level norm, as one could only expect. But that happens both inside Portugal and Brazil, which both have their own dialects, sociolects, levels of language. The fact is, the written formal language is practicaly the same in both countries.
The problem in Brazil is the huge % of iliterates, that hardly recognize their own language at "its peak" (so to speak). Now, that's a social and economical problem, and of educational policies, but not a linguistical one.
And then, a few higher class Brazilians are so mad about having their native language named after a small, insignificant country, home of small shop keepers with big mustaches and small brains, that they distort and mask the language (like adopting a matching phonetic ortography), to name it something different. Would be better recognizing the simple fact Portuguese and Brazilians share the same language, and that wont change by mere strong of will.
Zatsu : excellent posts, I agree with everything you wrote.
''Brazilians are a cross of monkeys and humans, sod don't expect they to speak proper Portuguese. ''
Go back to school, you ignorant cow.
Vá no banheiro cagar, sua rapariga escrota!
-The problem in Brazil is the huge % of iliterates, that hardly recognize their own language at "its peak" (so to speak). Now, that's a social and economical problem, and of educational policies, but not a linguistical one. -
Shut up, you Portuguese colonizer. Even myself and my friends from upper classes speak Brazilian way, we don't use Portuguese grammar: ''Chamo-me, Amo-te, Chego a casa, vou lá a casa'' no one speaks like this, it's always: Eu me chamo, Te amo (or Amo você), Chego EM casa, eu vou lá EM casa''.
So, it has nothing to due with being educated or not, even our language professors speak Brazilian in class, they never speak like Portuguese.
Shut up, you know nothing, zip, nada about Brazil.
Swiss people are rich and educated and they don't give a damn about German grammar, they use the language the way they want.
The same thing is happening in Brazil. Sacou, sua besta fedida!?
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