Which part of Britain do you hail from? The part I'm from has largely been up to now been very vehemently anti-EU (the government doesn'y even dare give the people a referendum, because they know how it would turn out), and looks very suspiciously on Europe in general. Not surprising I guess since Britain has fought major wars with all of the closest neightbours. The French, The Dutch, The Spanish, the Germans etc. I disagree that we should leave all the current crises up to the vying Superpowers, there are huge challenges that necessitate that all countries work together otherwise we'll all collapse together, so hopefully people in this country will start to see the EU as a good thing, and not some nefarious entity trying to take away Britain's sovereignty as it has been seen up to now.
"England"
He's Scottish, from Ediburgh. Or Hell, depending on how you want to "take" his username....release the Rottweilers!
>>and looks very suspiciously on Europe in general. Not surprising I guess since Britain has fought major wars with all of the closest neightbours<<
So have the French, the Dutch, the Germans etc. Still, they are more outgoing and progressive!
So have the French, the Dutch, the Germans etc. Still, they are more outgoing and progressive!
***He's Scottish, from Ediburgh. Or Hell, depending on how you want to "take" his username....release the Rottweilers! ***
It's EdiNburgh actually, Uriel! ;-) And yes, I am as Scottish as bannocks and a tot of Glenfiddich. And according to the regular mis-spellings of my name in this forum (which is my real name btw) I am nothing less than diabolical with an 666 hidden among my thick blond locks.
Many people in Britain really do think that membership of the European Union will result in a gradual loss of a separate British identity and sovereigny as an independent nation. That feeling appears to be much stonger in England than it does up here in Scotland. I don't think that way at all - Britain is a very conservative country by and large, agreed, and over a 1,000 years of history as an independent nation, with a very distinct character and identity, is not going to be chucked away under any circumstances.
Exactly the same can be said for all the other seperate countries of the EU - not one single one of them is going to allow themselves to be drained of their very separate national identities either. I believe it's perfectly possible for all all to be included in one large Union identifying us all as Europeans, which is what we all are, yet at the same time remain clearly indentifiable separate units and still pretty much living our lives and retaining all of our own national characteristics under our own freely elected national Governments, much like all the separate States of the American Union do.
If Texans and Californians and New Yorkers and Iowans can all lead independent lives under the single Star Spangled Banner then so can the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Sweden and all the other EU Member States co-exist under the Blue flag with a circle of ever increasing yellow spangled stars.
It's EdiNburgh actually, Uriel! ;-) And yes, I am as Scottish as bannocks and a tot of Glenfiddich. And according to the regular mis-spellings of my name in this forum (which is my real name btw) I am nothing less than diabolical with an 666 hidden among my thick blond locks.
Many people in Britain really do think that membership of the European Union will result in a gradual loss of a separate British identity and sovereigny as an independent nation. That feeling appears to be much stonger in England than it does up here in Scotland. I don't think that way at all - Britain is a very conservative country by and large, agreed, and over a 1,000 years of history as an independent nation, with a very distinct character and identity, is not going to be chucked away under any circumstances.
Exactly the same can be said for all the other seperate countries of the EU - not one single one of them is going to allow themselves to be drained of their very separate national identities either. I believe it's perfectly possible for all all to be included in one large Union identifying us all as Europeans, which is what we all are, yet at the same time remain clearly indentifiable separate units and still pretty much living our lives and retaining all of our own national characteristics under our own freely elected national Governments, much like all the separate States of the American Union do.
If Texans and Californians and New Yorkers and Iowans can all lead independent lives under the single Star Spangled Banner then so can the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Sweden and all the other EU Member States co-exist under the Blue flag with a circle of ever increasing yellow spangled stars.
In the US there's no sense of "New York blood" or "Iowan Blood". But in Europe, that's how it is. The French believe in "French blood" the Germans believe in "German blood", and how there's a sense of Germanness that can only truly belong to G E R M A N S and nobody else, not even people who move there and have lived there for 4 generations.
It's that sense of unique ethnic identity that leads me to believe the EU won't ever work as smoothly as the US has.
It's that sense of unique ethnic identity that leads me to believe the EU won't ever work as smoothly as the US has.
To be fair, there are people in Alsace, Hessen, Gelding, etc. whose ancestors have been there for 1500 years (or longer) which, for 99.99% of Americans, is not the case. "German blood" makes up a percentage of the American population, as does "French blood" or "Italian blood" but they're spread out from Maine to California and Wisconsin to Louisiana. It's really difficult to compare the states to the EU nations because we are so young.
And, again to be fair, we Texans tend to identify ourselves as such, which may be comparable to the notion of "German blood" etc. We have to, otherwise we'd have a bunch of Oklahomans claiming to be Texans, and we just can't have that :-)
And, again to be fair, we Texans tend to identify ourselves as such, which may be comparable to the notion of "German blood" etc. We have to, otherwise we'd have a bunch of Oklahomans claiming to be Texans, and we just can't have that :-)
I know, Damian -- my crappy typing skills strike again!
<<To be fair, there are people in Alsace, Hessen, Gelding, etc. whose ancestors have been there for 1500 years (or longer) which, for 99.99% of Americans, is not the case. "German blood" makes up a percentage of the American population, as does "French blood" or "Italian blood" but they're spread out from Maine to California and Wisconsin to Louisiana. It's really difficult to compare the states to the EU nations because we are so young.
And, again to be fair, we Texans tend to identify ourselves as such, which may be comparable to the notion of "German blood" etc. We have to, otherwise we'd have a bunch of Oklahomans claiming to be Texans, and we just can't have that :-) >>
Hmm, sounds like the people in northern NM who look down on Mexicans and won't claim any Mexican blood because "may family has been here for 400 years and we are Spanish, dammit!" ;)
<<To be fair, there are people in Alsace, Hessen, Gelding, etc. whose ancestors have been there for 1500 years (or longer) which, for 99.99% of Americans, is not the case. "German blood" makes up a percentage of the American population, as does "French blood" or "Italian blood" but they're spread out from Maine to California and Wisconsin to Louisiana. It's really difficult to compare the states to the EU nations because we are so young.
And, again to be fair, we Texans tend to identify ourselves as such, which may be comparable to the notion of "German blood" etc. We have to, otherwise we'd have a bunch of Oklahomans claiming to be Texans, and we just can't have that :-) >>
Hmm, sounds like the people in northern NM who look down on Mexicans and won't claim any Mexican blood because "may family has been here for 400 years and we are Spanish, dammit!" ;)
Ethnically, Americans are mongrels. We originated from European stock, but we're since become the offspring of practically every race and nationality in the world. So no, we don't have the distinctive ethnic heritages found in European states. But this is not to say that the American states are culturally homogenous. Very far from it.
The most obvious evidence of this is in our speech. You can hear the variations from region to region, and in many cases, from state to state. No one who knows what to listen for will mistake a Virginian for a North Carolinian, a North Carolinian for a South Carolinian, or a South Carolinian for a Georgian. They're very distinct.
In many ways, the American states are also culturally distinctive in law. All have an underpinning of English common law, but overlaid with unique elements based on how each state developed. Here in Texas, we've retained many elements of law from colonial Spain. Next door in Louisiana, they retain elements of the Napoleonic Code of France.
These distinctives are also evident in most other elements of state culture, such as music, cuisine, politics, etc. The distinctives aren't as pronounced as they used to be due to 230 years of Union, modern mass communication, and a more mobile population. But they're still there.
So ethnic/cultural diversity isn't necessarily a show-stopper when it comes to European Union. While it's possible the states of Europe will never become as tightly integrated as the American states, it's likely Europe will find a much smoother path to Union than we did. After all, we had to undergo a violent Revolution followed by an incredibly bloody Civil War to perfect our Union. I seriously doubt either will be necessary in Europe.
The most obvious evidence of this is in our speech. You can hear the variations from region to region, and in many cases, from state to state. No one who knows what to listen for will mistake a Virginian for a North Carolinian, a North Carolinian for a South Carolinian, or a South Carolinian for a Georgian. They're very distinct.
In many ways, the American states are also culturally distinctive in law. All have an underpinning of English common law, but overlaid with unique elements based on how each state developed. Here in Texas, we've retained many elements of law from colonial Spain. Next door in Louisiana, they retain elements of the Napoleonic Code of France.
These distinctives are also evident in most other elements of state culture, such as music, cuisine, politics, etc. The distinctives aren't as pronounced as they used to be due to 230 years of Union, modern mass communication, and a more mobile population. But they're still there.
So ethnic/cultural diversity isn't necessarily a show-stopper when it comes to European Union. While it's possible the states of Europe will never become as tightly integrated as the American states, it's likely Europe will find a much smoother path to Union than we did. After all, we had to undergo a violent Revolution followed by an incredibly bloody Civil War to perfect our Union. I seriously doubt either will be necessary in Europe.
What did Europe go through to perfect their Union? About 2,000 years of warfare, genocide, and other such pleasantness. You aren't going to erase 2,000 years of history with a piece of paper.
What did America go through to perfect their Union? About 2,000 years of separate tribal lifestyles largely as hunter-gathers, and other such pleasantness. You aren't going to erase 2,000 years of history with a piece of paper... Certainly not, you have to break every agreement you ever made with those natives (at least until the 1970's or so) just to fuck them over. Genocide? Call it what you want, those natives aren't real Americans! They lost, right?
The EU is not the same type of union the US is and probably never will be. The only US state to be a recognised independent country was Texas and that was after the US existed as a country. The intention of the US was always to be a country, the EU was intended primarily to make a third world war impossible. It is better thought of in terms of globalisation and advantages in trade are its main value.
Americans seem to put a great deal of effort into convincing the world they are a hugely varied country. This is, of course, true, but it's not surprising because almost every country on earth has huge variety within it. While it is fair to compare America to, say, Germany regarding cultural diversity, it is absurd to compare the US to the whole of the EU. American diversity is more racial than geographical. There is little chance an American can differentiate accents on a state by state level as Alex suggests other than by... chance. I challenge you to take this (far more general test) I googled:
http://www.noerf.com/irk/accentquiz.html
I'm not American, but I bet I scored better than you. Here's my result in code (three times so you don't think I'm cheating):
641
943
861
I'll tell you how to work out my score (three times with the same rule) from these numbers once you've done it.
The EU is not the same type of union the US is and probably never will be. The only US state to be a recognised independent country was Texas and that was after the US existed as a country. The intention of the US was always to be a country, the EU was intended primarily to make a third world war impossible. It is better thought of in terms of globalisation and advantages in trade are its main value.
Americans seem to put a great deal of effort into convincing the world they are a hugely varied country. This is, of course, true, but it's not surprising because almost every country on earth has huge variety within it. While it is fair to compare America to, say, Germany regarding cultural diversity, it is absurd to compare the US to the whole of the EU. American diversity is more racial than geographical. There is little chance an American can differentiate accents on a state by state level as Alex suggests other than by... chance. I challenge you to take this (far more general test) I googled:
http://www.noerf.com/irk/accentquiz.html
I'm not American, but I bet I scored better than you. Here's my result in code (three times so you don't think I'm cheating):
641
943
861
I'll tell you how to work out my score (three times with the same rule) from these numbers once you've done it.
"American diversity is more racial than geographical. "
PotofGold, I could agree with all of your statements except this one; it does not take into account country of origin. For example, the heavily German culture in Wisconsin is far different from the culture in English Protestant Lubbock, Texas!
PotofGold, I could agree with all of your statements except this one; it does not take into account country of origin. For example, the heavily German culture in Wisconsin is far different from the culture in English Protestant Lubbock, Texas!
I can't believe that I mis-spelled the word "separate" in my last posting....I only noticed it by hastily scanning down over what I had written. I do hope nobody else noticed it.....it is one of the most commonly mis-spelled words here in the UK anyway....others are "accommodation" (many people use only one "m") and "privilege" - people have a field day with this one - some botch it up altogether by inserting an "e" instead of the second "i" and others add a "d" before the "g".
Uriel, you have nothing to worry about - your texts are perfect as a rule.......you simply and mistakenly made a wee bit of a dog's dinner of my home city's name.....I wish I had a quid for every time I hear your compatriots mis-pronounce the name Edinburgh! For some stange reason it really IS only the Americans who call it "Eddin-burrow" for some reason! ;-) It no long jars on our native ears as we are used to it.
It's: "ED'n'bruh"! preferably with the vowel of the first syllable almost turning into an "ee" sound, and the "r" rolled as best you can.
Regarding the issue of the American Union v the European Union - there isn't much common ground between the two really, as has been stated in here by other posters - the history of the two "Continents" (for argument's sake, let's refer to the United States as a Continent, for that is what it is in effect, discounting Canada and Mexico while apologising to those two countries at the same time.
Language variation isn't so much an issue in America as it is here in the EU as English is pretty much the standard across the board in the USA even though Spanish has a very high profile in some parts of America as we all know, and accoring to a recent report it is set to become even more prominent. According to this report, by 2042 white people will be in the minority over there as the raial/ultural make-up of the country changes quite dramatically. WASPS (White Anglo Saxon Protestants - who currently rule the roost, so to speak) will have become a minority group by then, which really is something to think about. By January next year the USA may well have a black President!
The situation here in the EU is different, where whites will naturally remain dominant by a very wide margin, in spite of immigration from the Third World, which is largely controlled anyway. Religion is not such an issue in the EU as it is in America, as even within the white groups religious adherence is diverse, with Roman Catholicism dominant in much of the South of Europe (and in Ireland of course) and Protestantism dominant in the North, with the Orthodox religion prevalent in other parts of the South and South East of the EU.
It's the Language and cultural diversity which I find to be the most interesting within the borders of the enlarged EU, and I think it's great to have such a situation contained within one single Union of nations. This may wll be the reason why some Americans think it will be more difficult for the EU to meld together "as one" in the same way as the American Union has done since its inception. But we shall see......
I think it's really interesting to pass from one country into another and notice an immediate change in Language use and also notice a range of other differences as well, all within a matter of a km or so. Even crossing over from Scotland into England (and even more dramatically, from England into Wales) you are aware of "change". As I said earlier, so is the change you notice when crossing from one Continental country into a neighbouring one, and you can do this two or three times or even more all in the same day.
To me personally, one of the main benefits of a European Union is the very welcome fact that all the horrors of past conflicts and tumoil between fellow European nation states of the last century, and others previously, will never be repeated. At least, so we hope.
At the same time I want Europe's Language and cultural diversity to continue while we are all under the same EU flag (as in the USA under their Union flag) and while the English Language is indeed pretty much understood, and spoken by very many right across the European heartlands, I really wouldn't like it to become the "Lingua Franca" within its borders.
At the same time, individual national identities and independent sovereignties will continue to be respected. I don't think anything will ever change those, no matter what. Nothing will eradicate very many centuries of cultural history in all the constituent European countries.
2009 will see the next elections right across the EU for a new European Parliament. Sadly, the UK always comes bottom in the voter turnout statistics for all EU Parliamentary elections.......British apathy is a problem to be dealt with on that one.
Uriel, you have nothing to worry about - your texts are perfect as a rule.......you simply and mistakenly made a wee bit of a dog's dinner of my home city's name.....I wish I had a quid for every time I hear your compatriots mis-pronounce the name Edinburgh! For some stange reason it really IS only the Americans who call it "Eddin-burrow" for some reason! ;-) It no long jars on our native ears as we are used to it.
It's: "ED'n'bruh"! preferably with the vowel of the first syllable almost turning into an "ee" sound, and the "r" rolled as best you can.
Regarding the issue of the American Union v the European Union - there isn't much common ground between the two really, as has been stated in here by other posters - the history of the two "Continents" (for argument's sake, let's refer to the United States as a Continent, for that is what it is in effect, discounting Canada and Mexico while apologising to those two countries at the same time.
Language variation isn't so much an issue in America as it is here in the EU as English is pretty much the standard across the board in the USA even though Spanish has a very high profile in some parts of America as we all know, and accoring to a recent report it is set to become even more prominent. According to this report, by 2042 white people will be in the minority over there as the raial/ultural make-up of the country changes quite dramatically. WASPS (White Anglo Saxon Protestants - who currently rule the roost, so to speak) will have become a minority group by then, which really is something to think about. By January next year the USA may well have a black President!
The situation here in the EU is different, where whites will naturally remain dominant by a very wide margin, in spite of immigration from the Third World, which is largely controlled anyway. Religion is not such an issue in the EU as it is in America, as even within the white groups religious adherence is diverse, with Roman Catholicism dominant in much of the South of Europe (and in Ireland of course) and Protestantism dominant in the North, with the Orthodox religion prevalent in other parts of the South and South East of the EU.
It's the Language and cultural diversity which I find to be the most interesting within the borders of the enlarged EU, and I think it's great to have such a situation contained within one single Union of nations. This may wll be the reason why some Americans think it will be more difficult for the EU to meld together "as one" in the same way as the American Union has done since its inception. But we shall see......
I think it's really interesting to pass from one country into another and notice an immediate change in Language use and also notice a range of other differences as well, all within a matter of a km or so. Even crossing over from Scotland into England (and even more dramatically, from England into Wales) you are aware of "change". As I said earlier, so is the change you notice when crossing from one Continental country into a neighbouring one, and you can do this two or three times or even more all in the same day.
To me personally, one of the main benefits of a European Union is the very welcome fact that all the horrors of past conflicts and tumoil between fellow European nation states of the last century, and others previously, will never be repeated. At least, so we hope.
At the same time I want Europe's Language and cultural diversity to continue while we are all under the same EU flag (as in the USA under their Union flag) and while the English Language is indeed pretty much understood, and spoken by very many right across the European heartlands, I really wouldn't like it to become the "Lingua Franca" within its borders.
At the same time, individual national identities and independent sovereignties will continue to be respected. I don't think anything will ever change those, no matter what. Nothing will eradicate very many centuries of cultural history in all the constituent European countries.
2009 will see the next elections right across the EU for a new European Parliament. Sadly, the UK always comes bottom in the voter turnout statistics for all EU Parliamentary elections.......British apathy is a problem to be dealt with on that one.
<<No one who knows what to listen for will mistake a Virginian for a North Carolinian, a North Carolinian for a South Carolinian, or a South Carolinian for a Georgian. They're very distinct.>>
I don't know about all that--
Yes, Virginians do have a variation--not unique--but different from North Carolina/South Carolina/Georgia which seem to grade into one another.
I can usually spot the Virginian by his/her speech, but the others are a continuum.
The notion of each single state having its own dialect or accent is a little stretched. It's not each state, but rather each region, where Virginia (and small parts of Tennessee, W. Va, etc) form their own distinct region.
I don't know about all that--
Yes, Virginians do have a variation--not unique--but different from North Carolina/South Carolina/Georgia which seem to grade into one another.
I can usually spot the Virginian by his/her speech, but the others are a continuum.
The notion of each single state having its own dialect or accent is a little stretched. It's not each state, but rather each region, where Virginia (and small parts of Tennessee, W. Va, etc) form their own distinct region.