Yes, ivory-tower concepts of "standard" and "non-standard" go out the window in the real world, where how you speak has a definite impact on job interviews and other social interactions.
british or american english?
<<Hey Jason, you've got a bit of a high opinion of yourself!
Perhaps you should change that, not your accent before coming to the UK.>>
I was just being open and honest about myself. Just because I'm not a scumbag (like you, Argonaut) does not mean that a have a high opinion of myself. If I really DID have such a high opinion of myself then I wouldn't be so shy, now would I? Also, I find your use of the term "Argonaut" as virulently racist and narrow-minded. I also suspect that you are somewhat jealous.
I used to think that I was at a disadvantage with regard to English proficiency because I was not born and raised in Britain. Now I thank the Lord that I was not. If I HAD been born and raised in Britain I'd probably be a skinhead Cockney scumbag like you right now. The only way I'd be a British born RP speaker would be if I came from an INSANELY rich family (which my family is not).
With the exception of upper-middle class middle aged couples, many young British tourists behave abominably, abhorently, and even deplorably when they visit Greek resorts. Besides the Faliraki incident and the riots a few yers ago in Malia, Crete which led to death and mayhem, there was also an incident in Zakynthos this summer which I'm too embarrassed to even discuss. I'm still clueless as to why Americans regard the British as civilised and refined. I guess their image is based on Hugh Grant and Julie Andrews and a few other utterly ridiculous British characters who've appeared on American shows and movies. The truth is there exists a small segment of British society which is extremely refined, but there also exists an even bigger segment which is just rubbish (perverted, disgusting, drunk louts who can't hold their liquor). I'm NOT saying that all British people fall into either the first category or the second (for there are many who fall somewhere in between). What I AM saying is that the number of Britons in the latter category is somewhat greater than the number of Britons in the former category, that's all. Also, just for the record there are plenty of Greek scumbags out there too - just in case you think I'm singling out the British. They just rarely get drunk or act extremely stupid in public.
Just remember that you threw the first dagger...
Perhaps you should change that, not your accent before coming to the UK.>>
I was just being open and honest about myself. Just because I'm not a scumbag (like you, Argonaut) does not mean that a have a high opinion of myself. If I really DID have such a high opinion of myself then I wouldn't be so shy, now would I? Also, I find your use of the term "Argonaut" as virulently racist and narrow-minded. I also suspect that you are somewhat jealous.
I used to think that I was at a disadvantage with regard to English proficiency because I was not born and raised in Britain. Now I thank the Lord that I was not. If I HAD been born and raised in Britain I'd probably be a skinhead Cockney scumbag like you right now. The only way I'd be a British born RP speaker would be if I came from an INSANELY rich family (which my family is not).
With the exception of upper-middle class middle aged couples, many young British tourists behave abominably, abhorently, and even deplorably when they visit Greek resorts. Besides the Faliraki incident and the riots a few yers ago in Malia, Crete which led to death and mayhem, there was also an incident in Zakynthos this summer which I'm too embarrassed to even discuss. I'm still clueless as to why Americans regard the British as civilised and refined. I guess their image is based on Hugh Grant and Julie Andrews and a few other utterly ridiculous British characters who've appeared on American shows and movies. The truth is there exists a small segment of British society which is extremely refined, but there also exists an even bigger segment which is just rubbish (perverted, disgusting, drunk louts who can't hold their liquor). I'm NOT saying that all British people fall into either the first category or the second (for there are many who fall somewhere in between). What I AM saying is that the number of Britons in the latter category is somewhat greater than the number of Britons in the former category, that's all. Also, just for the record there are plenty of Greek scumbags out there too - just in case you think I'm singling out the British. They just rarely get drunk or act extremely stupid in public.
Just remember that you threw the first dagger...
For fuck sake who gives a damn about American English or British English. The thing we don't need a fucking translater to communciate with eachother. There is no big difference between the two.
<<I'm still clueless as to why Americans regard the British as civilised and refined. I guess their image is based on Hugh Grant and Julie Andrews and a few other utterly ridiculous British characters who've appeared on American shows and movies. The truth is there exists a small segment of British society which is extremely refined, but there also exists an even bigger segment which is just rubbish (perverted, disgusting, drunk louts who can't hold their liquor).>>
That's because the latter don't come and visit us! Greece is so much closer and cheaper....
That's because the latter don't come and visit us! Greece is so much closer and cheaper....
It seems that the British and the Germans are involved in a competition to see whose tourists can behave the most loutishly in Southern European resorts! It's true, a lot of British people behave atrociously when they're on holiday and have some drink inside them - but most of us don't behave like that.
Americans speak American, and they speak it extremely well. Canadians are also quite fluent in it. People from Britain, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa speak English very well, as it is their native tongue, but most also have a fair command of American, owing to their exposure to films and television programmes in American.
>>Americans speak American, and they speak it extremely well. Canadians are also quite fluent in it. People from Britain, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa speak English very well, as it is their native tongue, but most also have a fair command of American, owing to their exposure to films and television programmes in American.<<
Umm, no. You speak as if "American" were a separate language from English, even though most North American English dialects are definitely very crossintelligible with most other English dialects, especially in higher registers, with most exceptions involving things like Scottish English dialects with a heavy Scots substratum, Indian English, and like. Hell, people still speak of German as if it were a single unitary language, even though it has *far* less crossintelligibility across its whole than English, NAE dialects included. One way or another, it is quite uncontroversial that NAE dialects belong to the same language as English English, Australian English, New Zealand English, and Irish English dialects, and I have not seen anyone who has truly been able to seriously argue otherwise.
Umm, no. You speak as if "American" were a separate language from English, even though most North American English dialects are definitely very crossintelligible with most other English dialects, especially in higher registers, with most exceptions involving things like Scottish English dialects with a heavy Scots substratum, Indian English, and like. Hell, people still speak of German as if it were a single unitary language, even though it has *far* less crossintelligibility across its whole than English, NAE dialects included. One way or another, it is quite uncontroversial that NAE dialects belong to the same language as English English, Australian English, New Zealand English, and Irish English dialects, and I have not seen anyone who has truly been able to seriously argue otherwise.
"Americans speak American, and they speak it extremely well".
I tend to agree that what Americans speak should now be considered and treated as a separate language. Yes, it obviously sprang from the English of the eighteenth century and earlier, as did Afrikaans from Dutch, but American spelling and pronunciation now differs enormously from English as it is spoken and written in all other countries which have English as their native tongue; American pronunciation may have evolved from a centuries-old base, but the spelling differences were deliberately made and continue to be endorsed.
I tend to agree that what Americans speak should now be considered and treated as a separate language. Yes, it obviously sprang from the English of the eighteenth century and earlier, as did Afrikaans from Dutch, but American spelling and pronunciation now differs enormously from English as it is spoken and written in all other countries which have English as their native tongue; American pronunciation may have evolved from a centuries-old base, but the spelling differences were deliberately made and continue to be endorsed.
What? Couldn't read that last post -- must've been in a different language.
>>"Americans speak American, and they speak it extremely well".
I tend to agree that what Americans speak should now be considered and treated as a separate language. Yes, it obviously sprang from the English of the eighteenth century and earlier, as did Afrikaans from Dutch, but American spelling and pronunciation now differs enormously from English as it is spoken and written in all other countries which have English as their native tongue; American pronunciation may have evolved from a centuries-old base<<
One note, though, is that the grammatical differences between Dutch and Afrikaans are *far* greater than those between English English and North American English dialects, which are quite minor in comparison; the grammatical differences between Dutch and Afrikaans are far more comparable with those between, say, literary standard Hochdeutsch and modern spoken Dutch respectively, all things considered.
As for the pronunciation differences between English English and North American English dialects, the main reasons for them are the loss of rhoticity in English English dialects, the merger of many vowel phonemes in many North American English dialects, and differing patterns of elision in many English English and North American English dialects. Furthermore, what you speak of being differences of North American English with what you call the "rest" of English are actually simply due to the English settlement of Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa occurring later than that of North America; in this regard one must note that Irish English and Scottish Standard English are at times closer to North American English, especially with regard to rhoticity, as they are not descended from English English dialects which had already become non-rhotic.
Another note is that the differences within both English English and North American English greatly outstrip the differences between the formal language varieties in both dialect groups; Received Pronunciation is probably closer to General American than, say, Received Pronunciation is to Geordie or General American is to dialects spoken on coastal islands off the southeast of the US or the "Yooper" dialect (although that is more like a form of GAE with heavy Canadian influence spoken with a very heavy Scandinavian accent).
That said, you are speaking of "American" versus some comprehensive "English" that does not include that; you do realize that you are thusly including, say, Scottish English dialects in "English", which often are far more different from RP and its like than GAE and its like is, especially once one considers dialects which do not fall under the header of Scottish Standard English. Consequently, your proposal makes very little sense unless you are to also exclude Scottish English dialects from what you call "English" as well, which is not something you have proposed above.
>>but the spelling differences were deliberately made and continue to be endorsed.<<
The matter with this is that the spelling differences were originally not really intentional, but rather that different already coexisting forms were chosen as "standard" during the standardization of spelling for written American English and British English. Later on, yes, there were more deliberate spelling shifts for the purposes of actual differentiation, but these were actually on the British English end of things, in particular with the favoring of -"ise" over -"ize" due to the latter being "too American", despite the latter having historically been the "correct" form or coexisting on equal terms with -"ise" in many places where one will see primarily -"ise" in British English today. Of course, Englishpeople claiming that -"ize" is an "Americanism" does little to encourage Americans to use -"ise" in its stead.
I tend to agree that what Americans speak should now be considered and treated as a separate language. Yes, it obviously sprang from the English of the eighteenth century and earlier, as did Afrikaans from Dutch, but American spelling and pronunciation now differs enormously from English as it is spoken and written in all other countries which have English as their native tongue; American pronunciation may have evolved from a centuries-old base<<
One note, though, is that the grammatical differences between Dutch and Afrikaans are *far* greater than those between English English and North American English dialects, which are quite minor in comparison; the grammatical differences between Dutch and Afrikaans are far more comparable with those between, say, literary standard Hochdeutsch and modern spoken Dutch respectively, all things considered.
As for the pronunciation differences between English English and North American English dialects, the main reasons for them are the loss of rhoticity in English English dialects, the merger of many vowel phonemes in many North American English dialects, and differing patterns of elision in many English English and North American English dialects. Furthermore, what you speak of being differences of North American English with what you call the "rest" of English are actually simply due to the English settlement of Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa occurring later than that of North America; in this regard one must note that Irish English and Scottish Standard English are at times closer to North American English, especially with regard to rhoticity, as they are not descended from English English dialects which had already become non-rhotic.
Another note is that the differences within both English English and North American English greatly outstrip the differences between the formal language varieties in both dialect groups; Received Pronunciation is probably closer to General American than, say, Received Pronunciation is to Geordie or General American is to dialects spoken on coastal islands off the southeast of the US or the "Yooper" dialect (although that is more like a form of GAE with heavy Canadian influence spoken with a very heavy Scandinavian accent).
That said, you are speaking of "American" versus some comprehensive "English" that does not include that; you do realize that you are thusly including, say, Scottish English dialects in "English", which often are far more different from RP and its like than GAE and its like is, especially once one considers dialects which do not fall under the header of Scottish Standard English. Consequently, your proposal makes very little sense unless you are to also exclude Scottish English dialects from what you call "English" as well, which is not something you have proposed above.
>>but the spelling differences were deliberately made and continue to be endorsed.<<
The matter with this is that the spelling differences were originally not really intentional, but rather that different already coexisting forms were chosen as "standard" during the standardization of spelling for written American English and British English. Later on, yes, there were more deliberate spelling shifts for the purposes of actual differentiation, but these were actually on the British English end of things, in particular with the favoring of -"ise" over -"ize" due to the latter being "too American", despite the latter having historically been the "correct" form or coexisting on equal terms with -"ise" in many places where one will see primarily -"ise" in British English today. Of course, Englishpeople claiming that -"ize" is an "Americanism" does little to encourage Americans to use -"ise" in its stead.
Once again I have to agree with what Jason (who sounds nothing like a "scumbag!) had to say regarding boozed up Brits abroad. They don't have to go to the European sunspots to demonstrate just how well they fit Jason's description. They have been doing a pretty good job of it all here at home as well as you probably know only too well. But as ever, it's the minority who get highlighted this way, understandably enough when you consider their behaviour. You can't call it animal behaviour because no animals behave in that way.
I love going to the pubs with my mates (all rougly in the 20/30 age group) but the type of pubs I normally frequent don't fall into the same category as all those pubs which cater for the types who make a point of getting bladdered, those types of guys when they get bladdered want to fight for whatever reason.....sometimes just for the hell of it. Recent stats here in the UK show that girls are rapidly catching up with the guys in the binge drinking / bad behaviour stakes.
Anyway, a surprising result of the recent relaxation (Nov 2005) of England's licensing laws, now allowing pubs to remain open 24/7 if they wish to, has seen a huge reduction in binge drinking and anti social behaviour resulting from drink. Booze related anti-social behaviour dealt with by the police has fallen by 50% in some areas. How that can be related to bad behaviour when in other parts of Europe I really don't know. Maybe it's all that sun....and of course, the cheap booze....it all has a dangerous effect on the British psyche, maybe...and that of other Northern Europe nationalities no doubt, but it's the Brits as usual who get all the bad press, probably justifiably if what Jason says is gospel, and we've no reason to think it's not.
I love going to the pubs with my mates (all rougly in the 20/30 age group) but the type of pubs I normally frequent don't fall into the same category as all those pubs which cater for the types who make a point of getting bladdered, those types of guys when they get bladdered want to fight for whatever reason.....sometimes just for the hell of it. Recent stats here in the UK show that girls are rapidly catching up with the guys in the binge drinking / bad behaviour stakes.
Anyway, a surprising result of the recent relaxation (Nov 2005) of England's licensing laws, now allowing pubs to remain open 24/7 if they wish to, has seen a huge reduction in binge drinking and anti social behaviour resulting from drink. Booze related anti-social behaviour dealt with by the police has fallen by 50% in some areas. How that can be related to bad behaviour when in other parts of Europe I really don't know. Maybe it's all that sun....and of course, the cheap booze....it all has a dangerous effect on the British psyche, maybe...and that of other Northern Europe nationalities no doubt, but it's the Brits as usual who get all the bad press, probably justifiably if what Jason says is gospel, and we've no reason to think it's not.
<<What? Couldn't read that last post -- must've been in a different language.>>
Where do these people come up with this stuff? Apparently, TonyM has difficulty understanding what we type. That's okay, Tony. I know it must be very hard for you with all the spelling differences. I wonder how much "British" and "American" spelling is the same? Please, someone, write this post in "British"!
Where do these people come up with this stuff? Apparently, TonyM has difficulty understanding what we type. That's okay, Tony. I know it must be very hard for you with all the spelling differences. I wonder how much "British" and "American" spelling is the same? Please, someone, write this post in "British"!
Yeah, and I don't think they've had to start subtitling our movies over there...
American:
Where do these people come up with this stuff? Apparently, TonyM has difficulty understanding what we type. That's okay, Tony. I know it must be very hard for you with all the spelling differences. I wonder how much "British" and "American" spelling is the same? Please, someone, write this post in "British"!
British:
Weor dee these fowk fowk come up wi' this stuff? Apparently, TonyM has probs kennin what wi type. That's okay, Tony. Ah knaa it must be git hard fre yee wi aal the spelling differences. Ah wunna hoo much "British" an' "American" spelling is the same? Please, someone, write this post in "British"!
Where do these people come up with this stuff? Apparently, TonyM has difficulty understanding what we type. That's okay, Tony. I know it must be very hard for you with all the spelling differences. I wonder how much "British" and "American" spelling is the same? Please, someone, write this post in "British"!
British:
Weor dee these fowk fowk come up wi' this stuff? Apparently, TonyM has probs kennin what wi type. That's okay, Tony. Ah knaa it must be git hard fre yee wi aal the spelling differences. Ah wunna hoo much "British" an' "American" spelling is the same? Please, someone, write this post in "British"!
<<Received Pronunciation is probably closer to General American than, say, Received Pronunciation is to Geordie or General American is to dialects spoken on coastal islands off the southeast of the US or the "Yooper" dialect (although that is more like a form of GAE with heavy Canadian influence spoken with a very heavy Scandinavian accent).>>
So true the above statement is. To me, a nice CNN American accent sounds light years closer (LIGHT YEARS - NOT SLIGHTLY - LIGHT YEARS I SAY) to RP than some of the broader English accents. Take for example, the bloke I spoke to from Northumberland. Had I not read the JC Wells book and had I not seen movies like "The Full Monty" and had I not known that he was English, I would have characterised his accent as a foreign accent - NOT EVEN AN ENGLISH ACCENT but a foreign one! I completely understand their preference for the flat 'a' up there in the 'bath' words (as in GAE) but the complete absence of a 'strut' vowel (blood, money, hundred, rum, etc...) really perplexes me. GAE HAS a strut vowel and its phonetic realisation sounds practically identical to the RP phonetic realisation of the aforementioned vowel. I mean, I would understand if it were the other way around, with Northern England having a foot-strut split and America NOT having one being that Northern England is a lot closer to Southern England (which HAS a foot-strut split and where RP is more common though not the rule) than America is.
To me, a thick Cockney sounds almost like Australian. As a matter of fact if we were to give RP a value of 10 and "General Australian" a value of 0, I would say that Cockney lies at about 2 or 3 on the number line. As far as the SW accents are concerned (which I've only heard twice), I find that a 'refined' Dutch or German accent is closer to RP than that.
Now let's take Scottish and Irish English. OK. Now, to me, 'Sean Connery' Scottish (and most educated Scots accents in general) sound extremely nice, very, intelligible, extremely pleasant, and much closer to English RP than most English accents. However, when I saw the movie "Trainspotting" (about a group of young Scottish heroin addicts) I was barely able to distinguish the language they were speaking as being English. Bloody Eminem sounds closer to RP than that. I've heard Irish accents (like on the Irish news) which sound extremely pleasant. However, I also saw an interview with an Irish woman once (whose son was in the IRA) in which the network had to include subtitles for her to be understood (this was a BBC channel - NOT a Greek channel).
Please note that the above merely reflects my personal observations and opinions drawn therein and is not necessarily free from any flaw, error, or misunderstanding.
Oh, and just for the record, I think that both Damian and Travis are the embodiment of pure, unadulterated, untainted wisdom, truth, and knowledge.
I also feel that Uriel, Candy, and Tiffany are all very intelligent, sophisticated, and classy ladies and I totally agree with most of what they say.
So true the above statement is. To me, a nice CNN American accent sounds light years closer (LIGHT YEARS - NOT SLIGHTLY - LIGHT YEARS I SAY) to RP than some of the broader English accents. Take for example, the bloke I spoke to from Northumberland. Had I not read the JC Wells book and had I not seen movies like "The Full Monty" and had I not known that he was English, I would have characterised his accent as a foreign accent - NOT EVEN AN ENGLISH ACCENT but a foreign one! I completely understand their preference for the flat 'a' up there in the 'bath' words (as in GAE) but the complete absence of a 'strut' vowel (blood, money, hundred, rum, etc...) really perplexes me. GAE HAS a strut vowel and its phonetic realisation sounds practically identical to the RP phonetic realisation of the aforementioned vowel. I mean, I would understand if it were the other way around, with Northern England having a foot-strut split and America NOT having one being that Northern England is a lot closer to Southern England (which HAS a foot-strut split and where RP is more common though not the rule) than America is.
To me, a thick Cockney sounds almost like Australian. As a matter of fact if we were to give RP a value of 10 and "General Australian" a value of 0, I would say that Cockney lies at about 2 or 3 on the number line. As far as the SW accents are concerned (which I've only heard twice), I find that a 'refined' Dutch or German accent is closer to RP than that.
Now let's take Scottish and Irish English. OK. Now, to me, 'Sean Connery' Scottish (and most educated Scots accents in general) sound extremely nice, very, intelligible, extremely pleasant, and much closer to English RP than most English accents. However, when I saw the movie "Trainspotting" (about a group of young Scottish heroin addicts) I was barely able to distinguish the language they were speaking as being English. Bloody Eminem sounds closer to RP than that. I've heard Irish accents (like on the Irish news) which sound extremely pleasant. However, I also saw an interview with an Irish woman once (whose son was in the IRA) in which the network had to include subtitles for her to be understood (this was a BBC channel - NOT a Greek channel).
Please note that the above merely reflects my personal observations and opinions drawn therein and is not necessarily free from any flaw, error, or misunderstanding.
Oh, and just for the record, I think that both Damian and Travis are the embodiment of pure, unadulterated, untainted wisdom, truth, and knowledge.
I also feel that Uriel, Candy, and Tiffany are all very intelligent, sophisticated, and classy ladies and I totally agree with most of what they say.