Bias Toward Multilinguals?

<<How can the author of this article criticize Lee Strobel if he's not an expert in ANY relevant field? It seems to me that he just wants to present a rebuttal as an atheist rather than a connoisseur. >>


Ah, but how can one criticise evolution not being an expert in the field?


<<One thing is for sure: we will ALL find out if there is a GOD when we die. If there's no God all people will be fine because, according to a widespread common sense most people are good if they don't steal, don't lie, have never killed a person, try to be good and care about others. However, if THERE IS a God who is HOLY and HATES SIN I wonder what might happen to people who spend their intellect and resources writing against GOD and those who believe in God. I'm not saying and can't say who's going to hell (if it exists) but if it exists I don't want to go there. >>




True, but that is only one of many possibilities, you can't prepare for them all. What if THERE IS a God who is UNHOLY and LOVES SIN, I wonder what might happen to people who spend their intellect and resources writing for God and who believe in God.

In the end all we can do is pick one and hope it's the right one, because whatever we pick there are an infinite number of contradicting possibilities.


<<If people want to believe in evolution FINE and if they prefer creationism FINE. Why should one be so picky about choices and try to force it to other people?>>


I kind of agree. We can't FORCE anyone to believe anything, but people used to believe the world was flat. You can still believe that today, no one will kill you, but still...


<<Even if I weren't a christian I could never believe that men evolved from other species since there is no evident proof for that, which is the same case for creationism.>>


What is 'evident proof'? For example, do you believe in atoms? Do you believe that humans are made up entirely of a huge amount of electrons, protons and neutrons? You can't see them so one could argue there is no evident proof, but if electrons don't exist, then how does electricity work? Surely it isn't just by chance?


I would like to finish by saying I'm not trying to offend anybody's views on Christianity and believe all people have the right to make their choices. I don't consider myself a hardcore atheist trying to force my beliefs to anybody. I'm just a curious person and believe the saying "cogito ergo sum". lol sorry for the copying.

Do you know much about Christianity, atheist?

<<Do you know much about Christianity, atheist? >>


Not very much about the details, I'll admit. I was, however, raised in a moderately religious family so I know about the general ideas. I went to church regularly until I was about 15 and I still go occasionally due to family things. I won't pretend I know a great deal, as I was never interested in the details nor did I believe strongly, I just went because that's was the way things were in my family and it was fun hanging out with the other kids. lol.

Does anybody know how many lenguages can an average man learn?
I suppose if you are romance native you can achive more latin lenguages than asian lenguages and viceversa.

And what is the price (time) to achive one lenguage compared with others?
perhaps learn chinese/arabic cost the same as 4 o 5 latin lenguages if you are native in one.

Let's set a price/time score in learning lenguages.

if you are native in a western latin lenguage...

Chinese costs 5 western latin lenguages
Arabic costs 5 western latin lenguages
English costs 2 western latin lenguages
German costs 3 western latin lenguages
Russian costs 4 western latin lenguages

This will be interesting for pupils who will want to return more lenguages for the same price (time + money). Efficiency: maximal return (lenguages) minimal price (time and money).

God was / is a medium for inner struggles or gains. God must be both good and evil for this reason. Because, if there is one God why would he tolerate evil?

I dislike this notion of Evolution and Creation, there should be more theories or hypothesis. It reminds me of politics (i.e. Dems and G.O.P) which ironically tend towards one.

Religions are just memes (habits) that have become a tradition or way of life for a particular culture or country.

Christianity has recycled creeds from Egpyt, Iran, Israel and Greece.

cogito ergo sum - Renee Descartes

However, he too was a believer in God. He did not want to rule out God from his philosophy.


Jesus Christ is God. He was an extraordinary man, a philosopher, a teacher, a poet, a stone mason, a passivist and amorous to everybody. He was in effect God; as the New Testament bible describes him.

<<I dislike this notion of Evolution and Creation, there should be more theories or hypothesis. It reminds me of politics (i.e. Dems and G.O.P) which ironically tend towards one. >>


If scientists comes up with a theory or hypothesis, then they say so. Then they are subjected to as many experiments as possible and the one that holds up best to these tests is accepted, although not without reservations. In science there is always the possibility of going back and changing, tweaking and adding on to the theory. Nothing is fixed in iron. Today's theory on evolution will most likely look different to the one in 100 years. The basics will probably be the same, but the details will be tweaked as new studies are carried out. If there isn't another rival theory then that points to there being a unanimous acceptance of evolution by scientists under the influence of vast amounts of evidence.

If there were uncertainty, there would be other theories. In physics for example, there are many competing theories that are being developed simultaneously. String theory, quantum gravity, brane theory are all aimed at unifying the 4 fundamental forces of nature, all of them have merits and all have disadvantages. None of them has taken an overwhelming lead though, which leads us to believe none of them are correct, and hence there are many people out there looking for new theories.

Morality or appeal of the theories don't come into the equation. If a scientist doesn't like a theory or finds it impossible to believe, that's too bad. Quantum mechanics is an example of such a theory that scientists had such a hard time to come to grips with. Who would have 'believed' that only certain energy and angular momentum were allowed. Who would have believed it would be possible to 'teleport' through barriers? Who would have believed matter was waves? Who would have believed mass and energy were the same thing? And yet that is the way it is, like it or not. If that weren't the way it is, I wouldn't be using this computer...

Thanks for the elaborate explanation - I know Evolution is not a creed but a way of knowing things via the scientific method. But it seems in this country you are either one or the other. Yet the "dems" are the ones whom change meanwhile the "G.O.P" do not. Ironic ain't it !

"True, but that is only one of many possibilities, you can't prepare for them all. What if THERE IS a God who is UNHOLY and LOVES SIN, I wonder what might happen to people who spend their intellect and resources writing for God and who believe in God."

That's right. One can't be prepared for all possibilities.
If there's an unholy God who loves sin definitely I don't want to follow him.
Even if it means to have eternal punishment I want to make a positive difference in people's lives.

"I kind of agree. We can't FORCE anyone to believe anything, but people used to believe the world was flat. You can still believe that today, no one will kill you, but still... "

The difference between your argument and theism is that science PROVES that the world isn't flat so I'd be ignorant if I denied the facts. One can't affirm 100% if God exists or not so one must pick ONE choice.

"What is 'evident proof'? For example, do you believe in atoms? Do you believe that humans are made up entirely of a huge amount of electrons, protons and neutrons? You can't see them so one could argue there is no evident proof, but if electrons don't exist, then how does electricity work? Surely it isn't just by chance?"

I do believe in atoms and your argument is fairly convincing as far as electricity is concerned. I believe that neither electricity nor human life appeared out of the blue. If that was true I believe that protons could be created out of nothing, which can't be done exactly like life can't be created out of nothing. That leaves us with the possibility of a supreme being who created or designed everything.

Cheers!!

"Not very much about the details, I'll admit. I was, however, raised in a moderately religious family so I know about the general ideas. I went to church regularly until I was about 15 and I still go occasionally due to family things. "

@atheist:

Sorry to ask but how "christian" or "religious" was your family?
Most people I've met who don't want to get involved in christian life got that feeling from looking at their parents' "christian life with double standards, whereby they preached something different from what they lived.
Such standard cannot be viewed as a correct definition of christianity.

In Japan, which is a predominantly 99% atheist country, I hear often about the "fear of religion" or "religion causing wars" when that's only the a superficial view based on people who claimed to be christians like Hitler (Killing millions of jews has nothing to do with loving your neighbor) or incidents like the catholic inquisition, the christianity x islam hostility stirred even more by the invasion of Iraq (When actually the American government was interested in the OIL).

"I won't pretend I know a great deal, as I was never interested in the details nor did I believe strongly, I just went because that's was the way things were in my family and it was fun hanging out with the other kids. lol."

This is exactly the profile of some people I've met.
One friend hates christianity because his parents are "christians" but are racists and another says he doesn't like christianity because his parents got divorced. Not only his parents got divorced but grandmother too...
I feel sad for hearing such things because many people associate christianity with hypocrisy and prefer to be "atheists" than "hypocrite christians".

In other words, christianity has become a "social event" rather than learning how to become more like Jesus, which is the meaning of christianity. Going to church and trying to be a better person will NEVER turn someone into a christian.

I also hear a lot that the there are many "convinced" christians, whose main difference from "converted" christians is that Christ never becomes the center of their lives. I really wished such "christians" didn't say they believe in Christ.

Well, I am Agnostic. So, I am not sure if there is a God or not.

Our philosophy is very easy: I can't be sure if God exists. So, I can't be Christian. Also the opposite. I can't be sure if God doesn't exist. So, I can't be Atheist.

It is obvious that a lot of people is really similar to Agnostic. They can say that they are Christian, but they really doubt about that. Even, Atheist people, sometimes, doubt about it.

I think that a lot of us are really Agnostic, you admit it or not.

I need some proves to believe in God, or other things like Aliens. I need to see an Angel, or an Alien to believe in them.

It is not enough to read the Bible, which was written by people (Evangelists) that didn't see the life of Jesus.

So, I doubt, I am Agnostic like all people, you admit it or not...

<<Sorry to ask but how "christian" or "religious" was your family?
Most people I've met who don't want to get involved in christian life got that feeling from looking at their parents' "christian life with double standards, whereby they preached something different from what they lived.
Such standard cannot be viewed as a correct definition of christianity. >>


I suppose there was some hypocrisy although that wasn't what put me off it to begin with. I guess I just wasn't satisfied with the explanations of Christianity and was drawn towards scientific explanations. I have an analytic mind and I couldn't just sit back and believe the people who were saying "God said let there be light, and there was light", when at the same time there were other people who were telling me what light is, how it works, how to do calculations with it, what speed it travels at, how it interacts with matter, how I can capture its energy to build a laser, how it obeys Maxwell's equations etc... I suppose a lot of Christians believe in all that too and there are some religious scientists, but yeah, for me religion just lost all sense of reality after that.
Sure, it would be nice if Christianity were true. It has a noble, romantic air about it, the church and the music exude a wonderful, peaceful atmosphere, but I couldn't make myself believe even if I tried. I mean, it would be like when I was a kid and used to wish that the Star Wars universe were true, I wanted to be a jedi. But alas...



<,<
In other words, christianity has become a "social event" rather than learning how to become more like Jesus, which is the meaning of christianity. Going to church and trying to be a better person will NEVER turn someone into a christian.>>


Yes definitely. When I was in high school there was a whole bunch of people who were ostensibly Christians but only so they could go to the 'youth groups' and socialise. Their hypocrisy really did disgust me. When they went on Christian camp they would sneak of into the bushes and have sex, lol. But that was already after I gave up religion.


<<In Japan, which is a predominantly 99% atheist country, I hear often about the "fear of religion" or "religion causing wars" when that's only the a superficial view based on people who claimed to be christians like Hitler (Killing millions of jews has nothing to do with loving your neighbor) or incidents like the catholic inquisition, the christianity x islam hostility stirred even more by the invasion of Iraq (When actually the American government was interested in the OIL). >>


I agree there. Unlike some atheists, I don't think religion is the 'root of all evil'. There will always be people committing heinous crimes no matter what they believe in. Religion has good effects, as well as bad, as does atheism as well as science. There's not much one can do...


<<Well, I am Agnostic. So, I am not sure if there is a God or not.
Our philosophy is very easy: I can't be sure if God exists. So, I can't be Christian. Also the opposite. I can't be sure if God doesn't exist. So, I can't be Atheist.
It is obvious that a lot of people is really similar to Agnostic. They can say that they are Christian, but they really doubt about that. Even, Atheist people, sometimes, doubt about it.>>


Yes I could be described as an agnostic, although in my opinion the term is a little too indefinite. That is, I am convinced there is more out there, much more, and we are only scratching the surface. Another question is what it is that is out there? I am 99% convinced that whatever mysterious things there are, they are not any of our religions we have in society. Most likely, they are completely different and bear no resemblance whatsoever (I don't think the universe is centred around us). Even more likely, what ever it is is probably beyond all possible human comprehension, in the same way that mathematics is beyond the comprehension of a flea.

harman you don't know anything about linguistics, please stop talking non-sense in this forum. You're ridiculous

Harman usted no conoce nada de lunguistica, por favor deje de decir chorradas en este foro de una vez. Suena muy ridiculo.

Harman vous ne connaissez rien de linguistique, s'il vous plait, arretez-vous de dire des conneries tout le temps dans se forum. Vous etes vraiment ridicule

Harman, voce nao conhece nada de linguistica, se faz favor deixe de dizer bobagens neste forum! Soa ridiculo demais!

<<I have an analytic mind and I couldn't just sit back and believe the people who were saying "God said let there be light, and there was light", when at the same time there were other people who were telling me what light is, how it works, how to do calculations with it, what speed it travels at, how it interacts with matter, how I can capture its energy to build a laser, how it obeys Maxwell's equations etc...>>


Apparently, God created us in his own image. That means God had the same structure as us. That means God had eyes. But eyes require light to work. So why would God have eyes if there was no light before he invented it?
Too many contradictions for me.

<<I'm sorry to know you're struggling with cultural matters but I guess that people will require you to know a little about the culture everywhere, even though it's impossible to throw away your culture and embrace another just like that.

Sometimes people freak out with me because even though I speak the language I think there's a limit as for adapting to the Japanese culture and I just hate that proverb "When in Rome do as the Romans do". Of course I'm not saying I'll just behave and live like a Brazilian everywhere I go but I have my comfort zone and people will also like to respect that. For instance, since I'm christian I go to my son's daycare from time to time and tell the teacher I don't want my son to partake in certain Japanese "cultural" (or I should say "religious") activities such as children's day, tanabata, day of the dead, etc.>>

Human beings all have to more or less lead a normal, mundane life and can't be supposed to learn fast. Learning always involves a lot of effort, such as learning a language, and I honestly admit that I know practically nothing about the Brazilian culture. I don't even know very well about the Japanese, either, even though the average Chinese have some ideas about Japanese food, Japanese language (their writing, almost all Kanji being transparent to us), etc. Personally, while I've been exposed to some Japanese comics, series drama, songs, food... and some other stuff, I still have very little knowledge about everything Japanese in general. So, even if some Germans mistook me for Japanese, in both polite and VERY impolite ways (I experienced this during my absence in Hamburg where I was insulted after being mistaken for being Japanese, followed by a lot of racist verbal attacks I didn't quite understand due to my limited German), I understand it as a completely normal situation. I don't quite know everything German all that well anyway, so I won't expect others to know everything Chinese very well...

Cultures are just so difficult and complicated. You can spend days talking about it and people still don't understand. I spent 30 minutes on the FIRE (or heat) in Chinese food concepts, and people still didn't quite get it. Upon my arrival, my family immediately invited me to take a lot of herbal drinks and stuff like that to cleanse myself. The Germans just make too much fried, grilled, oily stuff that made me so sick during my stay.

And in fact, after some reflections, I have a new understanding about socializing in the case of...cross-cultural or cross-racial, whatever you call it. The thing is: sometimes different cultures blend together very well, sometimes they don't. It's so difficult to understand foreigners, even though my English and German proved quite sufficient from the linguistic perspective. And like for looking for a relationship, I see the same difficulties. For foreigners, most of them, you'd be a shy person if you were modest. But at least many Chinese are, superficially, modest, so, superficially, they're also shy. Our culture doesn't really favor binge drinking or drinking in the German sense, among other things, and people started to make silly comparisons, almost always against my own culture.

As a Chinese, you may say I well have a lot of prejudices too. One of them, the most serious, is that I think you guys don't understand us in almost all cases. People, really, I think, they just didn't understand and start making silly assumptions which aren't really true. In a Chinese society, yeah, I'm not a very active guy, but I'm in no way "shy", or at least I've become so. Being reserved doesn't mean I'm shy, and this is, I think, especially true for the Chinese in general. We don't like to show that easily, except in karaoke lounges.

And this cultural trait, in my case, did stop me from looking for a relationship. But, anyway, after the whole stay... for example, for a "relationship", I find it essential that my significant other knows my culture well. I don't really approve, say, of the headstrong character of some African girls, the "liberal" smoking (including joints, i.e. marijuana) and drinking habits of both African and European girls, etc. But I also completely disapprove the (ultra)conservatism of some Chinese girls. Indeed, I disapprove a lot of the Chinese culture ever since. While I find it more pleasant in general to socialize with non-Chinese of all kinds, all of them lack one thing in common usually: a good understanding of my culture. This made me feel very lonely when I'm the only Chinese among the lots of them. So, you can say that, if there were ever a foreign girl (supposedly East Asian or European; I'm only attracted to both) who could speak Chinese very well, she could well make a perfect date.

As a language buff, I've seen, just like some other Chinese guys, too many instances of children losing Chinese. And those of our women with foreign guys, but rarely the reverse. I've read excessively a lot about all these. I find it a complete disappointment to see, not just "our men with foreign women", but also that "learning Chinese" is so rare. Unlike some silly Chinese guys who are proud of their language being "difficult and thus sophisticated", I feel sorry for that if you think so, but I can't make it easier. No, in fact English isn't at all easy for me, even with so much English in my head, even with my level.

The Chinese have some good cultural traits that others simply don't have. As an Asian people, we pay more attention to children's education. This isn't quite true for many Europeans, among others. (But the Europeans have better excuses. We Chinese also rush to their countries anyway for free education, better job prospects, etc, through studying in their countries. I'm expecting myself to do the same later in Germany)

BUT, well, yeah, despite all this, I'd say I still find it more pleasant to stay in Germany for good, for example, on condition that I'm culturally competent in Germany. This would also be true for any other developed countries in North America/Europe. Why? Economic concerns are the most important. I'm Chinese, after all, and unlike Chinese emigrants a century ago, I'm one of those these days who are looking for a better life, but not through leading a difficult life abroad, even taking my own life for that. For us, for example, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain.... and to a lesser extent France, Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, all these are some of the best destinations. But I know now that, with my experiences, it's important to function well in a FOREIGN country. For many younger Chinese in Hong Kong now, well, many of us simply want to leave HK for good for economic reasons, since our economy... we expect it to break down sooner or later, with so few industries you can work in. I wouldn't mind if the whole population (like the Germans) don't speak Chinese at all. Many Chinese don't even want to stay in their own country anyway. The thing is just that you need to be competent, whichever nationality you are of, in order to move elsewhere. I don't want to lose all my freedom. And, in the case of Germany, I could see that, really, language ability is exactly the key to independence. Even if you function perfectly in your own country, you could be living like shit if you can't speak anything of the local language at all in a foreign country. In Germany, even just as an exchange student, I spent most of my time struggling with German as an individual, often without any help from my German acquaintances, and I gained some degree of freedom. This is my first understanding of independence and individualism, and in this case, in a foreign country.

This is also what many Chinese don't really know. They know they could have problems with languages abroad, and yet they never try, either because they'll stay in their country anyway, or because they're just so lazy. Unlike some (white) Anglophones who do have no worries at all with, say, Chinese in Hong Kong, I personally regard myself a person who should know the languages of many peoples. In this world, at least in many parts in Europe, they, people, expect you East-Asian-looking or Chinese-looking or real Chinese people to speak English or the local language. And we, Chinese, either we just try to deal with it with crappy English, or we, the rare minority, go further by mastering the whole language even before we depart for that country. And that was me who did the second choice. In Germany, I almost always started with German with Germans, Turks... well, in fact, I even said Danke and Bitte, etc, to people who turned out to be from Hong Kong and who actually didn't understand my German.

PS: in fact, with my experiences in head, I also find it a very bad idea to travel without even knowing the local language. I'm truly a language buff. If that is so, I can't possibly travel in a lot of countries in my lifetime when you have so many languages to learn. The thing is, like in Amsterdam, I found the Dutch didn't speak any German and their English was crappy. I didn't find it a lot of fun to see Dutch stuff without understanding any Dutch on it. I'd say that... if I go to somewhere for the scenery, like the landscape of Amsterdam, the Sanssouci, the Rhine river, etc, then yes, I don't need Dutch or German to understand the scenery. But for museums... even English is very bad for the Van Gogh museum (where you have Dutch and English). And what's more, a tourist sometimes looks silly in a foreign place when s/he is going around a place where the locals don't really care about/for. This was especially true for Munich. The Marienplatz was nothing special, and yet most souvenir booths sold a lot of Munich FC stuff. That's silly. When I think about it, I think of, in the same ways, how silly tourists look in Hong Kong. In fact, the best of Hong Kong lies in, IMO, our nature, NOT all those shitty skyscrapers. But of course, the nature on a postcard of Hong Kong isn't at all interesting to rip the tourists off, isn't it?

I guess we have to ask more about Xie's techniques for learning without theories.>>