A concept of time

Ant_222   Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:41 pm GMT
«I am afraid your examples are insufficient. Simultaneity is not the only reason to use Simple Past in two or more actions.»

I wanted to find an example resembling yours, that is, meeteng the form
"someone doubted if + past simple" to express a doubt about an action taking place in the future by the moment of the doubt. That could prove your example is correct. But I found no such examples.

Of course, there were many sentences satisfying the abovementioned form. But in thouse the doubt and the action were simultaneous, in contrast to your example.

On the other hand, I found many sentences of the form:
"someone doubted if + [subject] would V1"

And it were theese examples which described a doubt preceding to the action in question.

From the written above I concluded that your example was either incorrect or very rare and asked a native speaker to tell his/her opinion.

«When actions are in sequence, it is a more common reason to use Simple Past:
Ex: He stopped there, stayed a while, and then went on along the road. (1) »
This is true. But this applies to actions not subordinated one to another.

«Therefore, my example is possible:
Ex: He doubted if they visited their uncle the next day. (2)»

The first and the second examples use different hypotaxis. The second example has a subordinate clause, while the first doesn't. The second sentence doesn't express just a sequence of past actions. The actions are subordinated in it. So, from the correctness of the first example doesn't follow the correctness of the second.

«== Visited happens after Doubted. As I have reasoned, now I (the speaker) know it is a fact, so I skip modal auxiliary.»

Let's suppose you are right. The sentece itself expresses that at a certain moment in the past they doubted about their visit on the next day. It says nothing about the visit itself, it doesn't say whether the visit took place or not.

On the other hand the use of simple past or of <would + V1>, as you assert, depends on whether you know the fact or not. If you didn't know if they had visited their uncle, you would use <would + V1>. This is nonsense because the information that this sentence should express is the same irregardless of whether you know if the visit took place or not: the information is about a doubt of an action, not about what happend later. This is another argument against the corectness of your example.
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«My reply: There is no "future in the past". It is a past doubt from someone other than the writer or speaker himself:
Ex: He doubted they would go to visit their uncle.
In my book I have explained there is a past doubt, a doubt from an actor in the storybook. As for the writer's doubt, it is a present doubt to the past, using perfective.»

Future in the Past is very simple: three days ago yesterday was in the future. And I would say: "I will finish my work on the day after tomorrow". But today it would sound like this:
"Three days ago I said I would finish my work in two days." That is Future in the Past. It refers to any moment or period that was in the future at a certain moment in the past.

Analogously, <will have done> may be called Past in the Future.

«Calling a tense "future in the past" proves one doesn't know how to define the future. Teaching a student to look for a future in the past will turn his common sense upside down.»

I find the name quite logical, characterising what this tense is used for.

You asked: "Do tenses denote time?"
Not 'Yes', and not 'No'.

If we want to determine the time of an action described in a sentence we should look at the tense and at the context. In general case only the both can clearly determine the time.
engtense   Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:52 pm GMT
Travis wrote: <<In the case of "is always walking", I would say that it is basically semantically timeless but not habitual, as it does not describe something that something *tends* to do, but rather specifies a specific action....>>

I am afraid you are wrong. With 'always', you can bet it describes " something that something *tends* to do".
engtense   Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:20 pm GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<<I wanted to find an example resembling yours, that is, meeteng the form
"someone doubted if + past simple" to express a doubt about an action taking place in the future by the moment of the doubt. That could prove your example is correct. But I found no such examples.>>

My reply: It is not about an action taking place in the future anymore. Please review my original example, and most important, the timing of it. I said this:
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If next week, for example, we LOOK BACK to these actions, they are certainty and expressed in past tenses:
Ex: He doubted if they visited their uncle the next day.
----------------------
The time flow is, we doubt if we visit our uncle tomorrow (7 August). By NEXT WEEK (12 August), however, if we LOOK BACK to the visit, it is a past action, rather than an action taking place in the future.

If I cannot explain this point to you, there is no reason in going into other points.
Ant_222   Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:22 pm GMT
But God's being inside us is not a tendention. It is rather a true constantly happening action. God doesn't visit us from time to time...

In this example 'always' emphasizes that the action is constant and uninterruptable. Here 'always' = 'all the time' = 'at any given moment'.
Ant_222   Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:32 pm GMT
«If I cannot explain this point to you, there is no reason in going into other points.»

Ex.: He doubts if they visit their uncle tomorrow
Ex.: He doubted if they visited their uncle the next day

I hope someone (other than me and you, engtense) writes if this example is correct...
Travis   Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:36 pm GMT
>>Travis wrote: <<In the case of "is always walking", I would say that it is basically semantically timeless but not habitual, as it does not describe something that something *tends* to do, but rather specifies a specific action....>>

I am afraid you are wrong. With 'always', you can bet it describes " something that something *tends* to do". <<

As Ant_222 said, the difference here is that such is not simply a tendency, but rather specifically applies to *all* points in time. If something were habitual, then that would mean that such might not actually apply to particular individual points in time, but in this case, such is not simply habitual as there are *no* points in time which it might not apply to.
engtense   Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:06 pm GMT
Ant_222 wrote:
<<But God's being inside us is not a tendention. It is rather a true constantly happening action. God doesn't visit us from time to time...
In this example 'always' emphasizes that the action is constant and uninterruptable. Here 'always' = 'all the time' = 'at any given moment'.>>

My reply: And so? My example "God in Jesus Christ is always walking with you" means God and I have to walk all the time, constant, uninterruptible, all the time, at any given time?
I tell you, even God can walk like that, I can't. I walk not constantly, not uninterruptible, not all the time, not at any given time.

Put it simply, "is always walking" doesn't, as Travis puts, specify a specific action. It really doesn't "apply to *all* points in time". Look also at other examples of "is always walking", can the walks mean specific walks, or walks at all time? I don't believe this.

Further proofs? I guess another structure "is walking every day" may help you two understand the walks are not a particular, single walk:
Ex: An obese, an overweight person who is walking every day for about 30 minutes gets substantial health benefits and lowers their risk of many diseases.....
Ex: Mike is walking every day. He is still short tempered, tired, nauseated and has headaches (scale of 1-10, it's only a 2-3), so not bad.
Ex: It is good that she is walking every day, that will help both her bones and her balance.
Ex: Steve is walking every day, sleeping in the homes of supporters, and depending on the work of his wife Pamela and other volunteers to find his shelter.....

If you still cannot see a habit from Always and Every Day, how can you be sure we foreign students will understand the "habit" in your murmur, just by Simple Present?
Ex: "As we CLEAR AWAY the debris of a hurricane, let us also clear away the legacy of inequality," Bush said during a national prayer service with other political leaders.....
== What kind of habit is this?
Travis   Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:28 pm GMT
For starters, the use of the verb "to walk" is *figurative*, engtense, and secondly, what I meant is that whoever, in this example "God in Jesus Christ" (not to say that I believe in such, but that's another story), is *always* in a state that in this case is referred to figuratively with the verb "to walk". This is not habitual, specifically because "always" is used here.

And as for your example of "is walking every day", you are changing things here, as the thing that makes "is always walking" non-habitual is the time adverb "always", and by replacing it with the time phrase "every day" you are changing the semantic tense of that which is being said. "Is walking every day" is habitual, specifically because it is referring to a repetitive action that is not bounded in time at all, as opposed to a continuous action, like that which "is always walking" refers to. "Is always walking" and "is walking every day" may be syntactically the same tense and aspect-wise at the verb level, but they are not the same tense and aspect-wise semantically.
engtense   Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:45 pm GMT
Travis wrote:
<<This is not habitual, specifically because "always" is used here.>>

My reply: Then I understand why the following is a habitual action, because "always" is not used here:
Ex: "As we CLEAR AWAY the debris of a hurricane, let us also clear away the legacy of inequality," Bush said during a national prayer service with other political...
Travis   Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:53 pm GMT
Yes, both clauses of that would be timeless/habitual in nature.
FireHawk   Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:40 pm GMT
Time
Paul   Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:37 am GMT
<<"Sometimes they are interchangeable.
e.g. He tires when he walks quickly = he tires when he is walking quickly."

But their meanings are not interchangeable. Even in your example above, there is a nuance of different meaning.>>

If they are used interchangeably, then it follows that their meanings are too. This would occur when a native speaker perceives no such nuance. In the above example the word "when" aligns the same actions to the same instant, so native speakers will not normally distinguish them.

The same can be said of "he tires while he walks" and "he tires while he's walking". The word "while" serves the same function as already described to render the two sentences as having the same meaning.
JJM   Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:33 am GMT
"If they are used interchangeably, then it follows that their meanings are too."

If the meanings of the simple and progressive are interchangeable, why do these two verb forms exist then?
Paul   Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:42 am GMT
<<If the meanings of the simple and progressive are interchangeable, why do these two verb forms exist then?>>

They're not always interchageable. The key word is "sometimes". Refer back to examples.
Ant_222   Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:22 pm GMT
«My reply: And so? My example "God in Jesus Christ is always walking with you" means God and I have to walk all the time, constant, uninterruptible, all the time, at any given time?
I tell you, even God can walk like that, I can't. I walk not constantly, not uninterruptible, not all the time, not at any given time.»

Here 'to be always walking with you' means 'to be always near you'. You understand it literally which leads to a mistake. God is omnipresent and every human being is important for Him, so, irregardless of what you are currently doing, He is near you (not literally again). And, of course, you don't have to walk for it.

Therefore, it is a constant uninterruptable action.

«He is always walking on campus after dark, checking for lighting that has gone out so that he can get it fixed to ensure student safety.»

This is a habitual action because it happens every ferial evening. On the time axis this action will look like a dash line since it starts and ends every day. Thus, the action is repeated regularly and is habitual.

In the following examples Simple Present denotes non-habitual actions:
1. "The earth revolves about the Sun".
2. "I see you."
3. In text adventures I often meet sentences like this: "As you turn the board copmputer on, it writes the following message on it's display..."
4. "The above examples describe different types of non-habitual actions by means of the Present Simple tense."

In (2) and (3) actions are even not timeless because thay are simultaneous with the moment they were expressed.

As I wrote above, "If we want to determine the time of an action described in a sentence we should look at the tense and at the context. In general case only the both can clearly determine the time."

Human language is very complicated, not allowing to define a simple formal rule of determining the time of expressed actions. But since it is for people rather than for computers, it is ok.