Thanks Brennus, I appreciate that. But I still wonder, are sock puppets allowed in this forum when they take over a discussion? I'm not going to argue against the rules of the forum; I just want to know, so that I can decide whether it is worth it for me personally to stick around or not.
Why is greek such a funny language?
Calliope,
Re: "Are sock puppets allowed in this forum?"
No. Though they are innocent until they prove themselves guilty.
Re: "Are sock puppets allowed in this forum?"
No. Though they are innocent until they prove themselves guilty.
To All Antimoon Readers (Calliope, Ion, Bogdan, Pelasgus et al.),
I have nothing against discussions about Greek history and ethnicity per se. I've heard people discuss them all my life and as a history major I have read arguments by academics on both sides as to how "Greek" the Modern Greeks are. After all, the Western World owes a great debt to the Greeks for defeating the Persians long ago at Marathon and Thermopylae and Greek was one of the first languages of the Christian religion so why shouldn't we in the West have an interest in some of these things?
However, since this is a language forum, please try to keep the conversations on this thread related as closely as possible to just the Greek language. If you feel that something related to Greek history or ethnology is necessary to make a point about the language then go ahead but I don't think that will happen too often.
The Greek language really has a long and varied history dating from Homer's time (c. 1200 B.C.) through Classical, Roman and Byzantine times right up to Nikos' Kazantzakis' book " Zorba the Greek." A lot of good poetry, with English translations, can be found in Modern Greek coming from both Greece and Cyprus. So there's lots to discuss here just sticking to the language.
Thanks,
Brennus - Moderator
(BTW, I have to say that all of you writing on here seem to be intelligent so let's not fight each other too much and try to respect each other's viewpoints.
I respect all opinions presented on here even if they conflict with each other. Personally, I believe basically in the continuity theory of Greek origins - that the majority of Modern Greeks can be traced back to the prehistoric peoples living in the the region: Minoans, Mycenaeans, Pelasgians etc. but that's just my personal view. In the academic world, all viewpoints have to be respected and condidered, including any number about the foreign origins of Modern Greeks too. )
I have nothing against discussions about Greek history and ethnicity per se. I've heard people discuss them all my life and as a history major I have read arguments by academics on both sides as to how "Greek" the Modern Greeks are. After all, the Western World owes a great debt to the Greeks for defeating the Persians long ago at Marathon and Thermopylae and Greek was one of the first languages of the Christian religion so why shouldn't we in the West have an interest in some of these things?
However, since this is a language forum, please try to keep the conversations on this thread related as closely as possible to just the Greek language. If you feel that something related to Greek history or ethnology is necessary to make a point about the language then go ahead but I don't think that will happen too often.
The Greek language really has a long and varied history dating from Homer's time (c. 1200 B.C.) through Classical, Roman and Byzantine times right up to Nikos' Kazantzakis' book " Zorba the Greek." A lot of good poetry, with English translations, can be found in Modern Greek coming from both Greece and Cyprus. So there's lots to discuss here just sticking to the language.
Thanks,
Brennus - Moderator
(BTW, I have to say that all of you writing on here seem to be intelligent so let's not fight each other too much and try to respect each other's viewpoints.
I respect all opinions presented on here even if they conflict with each other. Personally, I believe basically in the continuity theory of Greek origins - that the majority of Modern Greeks can be traced back to the prehistoric peoples living in the the region: Minoans, Mycenaeans, Pelasgians etc. but that's just my personal view. In the academic world, all viewpoints have to be respected and condidered, including any number about the foreign origins of Modern Greeks too. )
Let's speak about the language! When did the new Greek start to differentiate itself from the old one and which were the circumstances?
Thank you?
Thank you?
Re: When did the new Greek start to differentiate itself from the old one and which were the circumstances?
In a nutshell, probably during the Late Roman and Early Byzantine periods (4th -7th centuries A.D.) even though a Koine form of Greek was around as early as Alexander The Great's time.
Of course, there's lots more to add to this if anyone knows.
In a nutshell, probably during the Late Roman and Early Byzantine periods (4th -7th centuries A.D.) even though a Koine form of Greek was around as early as Alexander The Great's time.
Of course, there's lots more to add to this if anyone knows.
The main differentiation started after Alexander the Great conquered
the Western Asia until India and spread the greek language.(attic dialect)
The greek became "koine" (wich means common,koinós,koini,koinon)
a lingua franca(c.300 BC – AD 300)The new speakers started to simplify spelling and pronounciation.
This is the hellenistic period,the Greek Globalization.
In koine the gospels were written and the Old Testament was translated.
That 's why it is also called biblical.
the Western Asia until India and spread the greek language.(attic dialect)
The greek became "koine" (wich means common,koinós,koini,koinon)
a lingua franca(c.300 BC – AD 300)The new speakers started to simplify spelling and pronounciation.
This is the hellenistic period,the Greek Globalization.
In koine the gospels were written and the Old Testament was translated.
That 's why it is also called biblical.
Yes, that's what I wanted to touch. The Hellenistic period which was indeed the momentum when the language started to take new characteristics. From what I know, this started already not longer but before Alexander, in his father's time. It was Filip's deam to create a new world...
Am I right?
Am I right?
Philip also had a desire to conquer the persian kingdom.
Athenian rhetor Isocrates urged him to unify all the Greeks
against the Persians,but he didn't prevent.
He was murdered.His son made it.
Actually the koine dialect started in Alexandria(Egypt)the capital of
hellenistic kingdom of Ptolemies.There was a multicultural city like the present New York.
Jews,Greeks,Arabs,Persians,Syrians were communicating in the international language of its time
So the language was simplified by the people
but the most of intelectuals,philosophers and scientists were insisting to write and speak in pure attic dialect.
Athenian rhetor Isocrates urged him to unify all the Greeks
against the Persians,but he didn't prevent.
He was murdered.His son made it.
Actually the koine dialect started in Alexandria(Egypt)the capital of
hellenistic kingdom of Ptolemies.There was a multicultural city like the present New York.
Jews,Greeks,Arabs,Persians,Syrians were communicating in the international language of its time
So the language was simplified by the people
but the most of intelectuals,philosophers and scientists were insisting to write and speak in pure attic dialect.
Thank you, Pelasgus!
Is the today Katarevusa based on the attic dialect or on the classical ancient Greek language spoken by the people before Fillip’s has conquered the country?
It is saying that today, the language spoken by elite (intellectuals, politicians etc) is not easy to be understood by ordinary people. How much truth is in that? And why is like that?
Best regards!
Is the today Katarevusa based on the attic dialect or on the classical ancient Greek language spoken by the people before Fillip’s has conquered the country?
It is saying that today, the language spoken by elite (intellectuals, politicians etc) is not easy to be understood by ordinary people. How much truth is in that? And why is like that?
Best regards!
Attic is the dialect in which the most classical texts has been written
(Plato,Xenophon,Thucydides,Lysias,Demosthenes,Isocrates)
The purists of Alexandria used it as a paradigm and the katharevusa is based maily on that purist movement.
an example Βασίλισσα οὐδείς τῶν Ἀρχαίων εἶπεν, ἀλλὰ βασίλεια ἢ βασιλίς.
* "Basilissa (Queen) none of the Ancients said, but Basileia or Basilis"
today we say Vasilissa.
This stopped in 1976,when the greek state adopted officially
the demotic and started to write as they speak.
The periods of greek language
1.Mycenean Greek
2.Classical Greek(homeric,attic,doric,aeolic dialect)
3.Hellenistic Greek(koine)
4.Medieval Greek(Byzantine)close to koine language
5.Modern Greek (demotic,from demos people like democracy,the rule of the people)
(Plato,Xenophon,Thucydides,Lysias,Demosthenes,Isocrates)
The purists of Alexandria used it as a paradigm and the katharevusa is based maily on that purist movement.
an example Βασίλισσα οὐδείς τῶν Ἀρχαίων εἶπεν, ἀλλὰ βασίλεια ἢ βασιλίς.
* "Basilissa (Queen) none of the Ancients said, but Basileia or Basilis"
today we say Vasilissa.
This stopped in 1976,when the greek state adopted officially
the demotic and started to write as they speak.
The periods of greek language
1.Mycenean Greek
2.Classical Greek(homeric,attic,doric,aeolic dialect)
3.Hellenistic Greek(koine)
4.Medieval Greek(Byzantine)close to koine language
5.Modern Greek (demotic,from demos people like democracy,the rule of the people)
@Ion(from Ionescu? :-)
i translate from a greek lexicon about a romanian word in greek
trayaska,τραγιάσκα < . [epifon]. traiasca (= “Hurrah!”).
The word emanates from Romanian [exclamation,epiphonema]
“traiasca Grecia” (= Long live Greece) that was accompanied by throwing the hats up of Romanian students,who came in Athens for tourism around 1900
. From that,Athenians believed that Romanians called so their hat.
So this hat
http://cameos.gr/product_info.php?products_id=73&language=gr
is called τραγιάσκα,trayasca in greek
What is the name of the hat in romanian?
i translate from a greek lexicon about a romanian word in greek
trayaska,τραγιάσκα < . [epifon]. traiasca (= “Hurrah!”).
The word emanates from Romanian [exclamation,epiphonema]
“traiasca Grecia” (= Long live Greece) that was accompanied by throwing the hats up of Romanian students,who came in Athens for tourism around 1900
. From that,Athenians believed that Romanians called so their hat.
So this hat
http://cameos.gr/product_info.php?products_id=73&language=gr
is called τραγιάσκα,trayasca in greek
What is the name of the hat in romanian?
Thank you, Pelasgus! Yes I know that the people are speaking dimotiki, but I would like to know how difficult for normal demos is, to understand katarevusa, because, for example for an ordinary Romanian, it is no problem to understand the literary spoken/written Romanian.
@ Athena.
Interesting story, isn't it? Now, after you told it, I kind of vaguely remember that I’ve read once about it.
No, rather Ionescu from Ion, than vice versa. Hut in Romanian is PALARIE- of unknown origin. (It is the object with margins similar to the ones what caw-boys are wearing).
Yes, you are right, TRAIASCA means Long Live, indeed, but I liked the meaning taken by the Greeks! See, haw a language creates new words or gives new connotation to the existing words. Traiasca came from the Slavic TRAJITI.
We have borrowed a lot of Greeks words as well (who in this world didn't do it !!!) because of their beautiful sounds and representation-power of expression. For example, Romanian, unlike the other Romance languages uses for Rose(s), the Greek Loan TRANDAFIR (Triantafilas - 3 files! - by the way, I like Ana Vissis song - Triandafila...).
@ Athena.
Interesting story, isn't it? Now, after you told it, I kind of vaguely remember that I’ve read once about it.
No, rather Ionescu from Ion, than vice versa. Hut in Romanian is PALARIE- of unknown origin. (It is the object with margins similar to the ones what caw-boys are wearing).
Yes, you are right, TRAIASCA means Long Live, indeed, but I liked the meaning taken by the Greeks! See, haw a language creates new words or gives new connotation to the existing words. Traiasca came from the Slavic TRAJITI.
We have borrowed a lot of Greeks words as well (who in this world didn't do it !!!) because of their beautiful sounds and representation-power of expression. For example, Romanian, unlike the other Romance languages uses for Rose(s), the Greek Loan TRANDAFIR (Triantafilas - 3 files! - by the way, I like Ana Vissis song - Triandafila...).
One who has graduated from Gymnasium can understand it.
One who has only went to demoticó(elementary school)he will understand
the half.
The koine dialect is being used in the hymnes by the orthodox church.
This hat (trayaska) is called "Flat cap" in english,you can see it on the head
of golf-players.
Triánta(τριάντα) + Fílla Φύλλα(leaves)=Triantáfyllo(Triandafilo-a,in plural)
Tria=3
Ena,dhío,tria,tessera,pente(ένα,δύο,τρία,τέσσερα,πέντε)
1,2,3,4,5
it is also in albanian trëndafil.
Has a rose 30 leaves? :-)
I like romanian traditional music and modern one is good.
"Torneró" rocks.Wil you have a romanophone song in next eurovision?
Noapte buna.
One who has only went to demoticó(elementary school)he will understand
the half.
The koine dialect is being used in the hymnes by the orthodox church.
This hat (trayaska) is called "Flat cap" in english,you can see it on the head
of golf-players.
Triánta(τριάντα) + Fílla Φύλλα(leaves)=Triantáfyllo(Triandafilo-a,in plural)
Tria=3
Ena,dhío,tria,tessera,pente(ένα,δύο,τρία,τέσσερα,πέντε)
1,2,3,4,5
it is also in albanian trëndafil.
Has a rose 30 leaves? :-)
I like romanian traditional music and modern one is good.
"Torneró" rocks.Wil you have a romanophone song in next eurovision?
Noapte buna.
Pălărie from latin pileum,from ancient greek pilos.(πίλος)
This is an example of katharevusa.
In the old formal greek,the teachers were saying to pupils
Φόρεσε τον πίλο σου.Fórese ton pilo sou. Put on your hat.
In those years(50,60)the pupils had hat and uniform.
But the popular,demotic,greek word for hat is Kapelo(Kαπέλο)
from italian cappello,from latin cappillus(hair),caput(head)
+pilus(a hair,)
So you use a word more close to ancient greek than us. :-)
This is an example of katharevusa.
In the old formal greek,the teachers were saying to pupils
Φόρεσε τον πίλο σου.Fórese ton pilo sou. Put on your hat.
In those years(50,60)the pupils had hat and uniform.
But the popular,demotic,greek word for hat is Kapelo(Kαπέλο)
from italian cappello,from latin cappillus(hair),caput(head)
+pilus(a hair,)
So you use a word more close to ancient greek than us. :-)