Creo que están comparando Greek y Spanish pero no estoy muy seguro.
Esperemos a ver que dice Franco.
Esperemos a ver que dice Franco.
Greek and Spanish comparison
<<What's wrong with the term "saracens", Josh? Is it politically incorrect in Canada? I don't mean that with sarcasm at all.>>
I don't think it's a Canadian thing, but it brings up images of the Crusades, the Reconquista, East vs. West, etc. that are probably not appropriate for today's geopolitical situation. Why not just say Moors if you're talking about Spain?
I don't think it's a Canadian thing, but it brings up images of the Crusades, the Reconquista, East vs. West, etc. that are probably not appropriate for today's geopolitical situation. Why not just say Moors if you're talking about Spain?
"I don't think it's a Canadian thing, but it brings up images of the Crusades, the Reconquista, East vs. West"
The reconquista is the best thing ever happened to Spain and to Europe. Moors do NOT belong in Europe. If Europe enjoys religious freedom it's because Spain stopped the Moors and send them back to Northern Africa.
Josh you are truly stupid. Can you imagine how Europe and even Canada would look like today with the Muslims in charge? I don't thing you do. You own part of your freedom to SPAIN and the RECONQUISTA.
Let's be tolerant but let's not be STUPID.
The reconquista is the best thing ever happened to Spain and to Europe. Moors do NOT belong in Europe. If Europe enjoys religious freedom it's because Spain stopped the Moors and send them back to Northern Africa.
Josh you are truly stupid. Can you imagine how Europe and even Canada would look like today with the Muslims in charge? I don't thing you do. You own part of your freedom to SPAIN and the RECONQUISTA.
Let's be tolerant but let's not be STUPID.
Lol!!! The Reconquista promoted religious freedom? Why did they kill anyone who admitted to being Muslim or Jewish? Why did the Inquisition start shortly after? And what does Muslim control of Spain in the Middle Ages have to do with freedom in modern Canada?
Josh is a sensible and prudent man. But it is better to speak about the difference between Romance languages and Latin. I think that is more interesting.
Which is the theory about the enormous differences between Spanish, French, Italian and Latin? The reason was a different Vulgar Latin in each country?
Which is the theory about the enormous differences between Spanish, French, Italian and Latin? The reason was a different Vulgar Latin in each country?
Some Guest:
"So you mean that the Romance languages stem from "Proto-Italian" (tautologic!) or "vulgar Latin" (was it Latin or not?), which was different from written Latin. You will admit that this is an assumption, a hypothesis and unproven theory.
I think it's suspicious that not one single coherent written "vulgar Latin" text or graffiti has ever been discovered. So many documents, signs etc. have survived all over the world, Romans were massively literate, many could write and read, the production and reproduction of texts was important - but always in Latin, even on tomb stones, never in hypothetic "vulgar Latin"
— Oui, mais comment se peut-il que le latin soit si vite mort, malgré le support de l'admistration impériale romaine puis celui de l'Eglise romaine? Alors que le grec, qui n'avait pas ces avantages, est resté la même langue?
Ma thèse est que:
— Le latin, dès l'époque de César, était déjà seulement un code écrit et cérémoniel ("mandarinal", en quelque sorte), alors que la langue parlée était absolument différente.
— On prétend que des mots germaniques (comme <guerre>/<guerra>/<war>) sont entrés dans les langues romanes après la chute de l'empire romain. Mais on les trouve dans TOUS les dialectes italiens et ibériques, même là où les Germains ne sont jamais passés! Conclusion: ces mots faisaient partie depuis déjà des siècles de la langue parlée dans tout l'Empire.
— Certains faits morphologiques étrangers au latin (par ex. la formation du futur des verbes) se trouvent dans toutes les langues romanes. Convergence inexplicable! Si ces langues s'étaient formées seulement après la chute de l'Empire, elle auraient divergé dans toutes les directions.
— L'italien de Dante Alighieri (13e siècle) est déjà celui du 21e. Mais entre le 5e et le 12e siècle, le latin se serait transformé au point de donner naissance à une langue complètement distincte? malgré le soutien de l'Eglise? Impossible!
"So you mean that the Romance languages stem from "Proto-Italian" (tautologic!) or "vulgar Latin" (was it Latin or not?), which was different from written Latin. You will admit that this is an assumption, a hypothesis and unproven theory.
I think it's suspicious that not one single coherent written "vulgar Latin" text or graffiti has ever been discovered. So many documents, signs etc. have survived all over the world, Romans were massively literate, many could write and read, the production and reproduction of texts was important - but always in Latin, even on tomb stones, never in hypothetic "vulgar Latin"
— Oui, mais comment se peut-il que le latin soit si vite mort, malgré le support de l'admistration impériale romaine puis celui de l'Eglise romaine? Alors que le grec, qui n'avait pas ces avantages, est resté la même langue?
Ma thèse est que:
— Le latin, dès l'époque de César, était déjà seulement un code écrit et cérémoniel ("mandarinal", en quelque sorte), alors que la langue parlée était absolument différente.
— On prétend que des mots germaniques (comme <guerre>/<guerra>/<war>) sont entrés dans les langues romanes après la chute de l'empire romain. Mais on les trouve dans TOUS les dialectes italiens et ibériques, même là où les Germains ne sont jamais passés! Conclusion: ces mots faisaient partie depuis déjà des siècles de la langue parlée dans tout l'Empire.
— Certains faits morphologiques étrangers au latin (par ex. la formation du futur des verbes) se trouvent dans toutes les langues romanes. Convergence inexplicable! Si ces langues s'étaient formées seulement après la chute de l'Empire, elle auraient divergé dans toutes les directions.
— L'italien de Dante Alighieri (13e siècle) est déjà celui du 21e. Mais entre le 5e et le 12e siècle, le latin se serait transformé au point de donner naissance à une langue complètement distincte? malgré le soutien de l'Eglise? Impossible!
"Lol!!! The Reconquista promoted religious freedom? Why did they kill anyone who admitted to being Muslim or Jewish? Why did the Inquisition start shortly after? And what does Muslim control of Spain in the Middle Ages have to do with freedom in modern Canada?"
Josh,
Sans Reconquista il n'y aurait ni Espagne, ni Portugal, ni castillan, ni portugais, ni catalan/valencien... La discussion s'arrête donc là.
De même, les libertés canadiennes sont inséparables de la destruction/marginalisation des cultures des Algonquins, Iroquois, Montagnais, Micmacs, Hurons etc.
C'est comme ça. L'histoire n'est pas une institution charitable.
Josh,
Sans Reconquista il n'y aurait ni Espagne, ni Portugal, ni castillan, ni portugais, ni catalan/valencien... La discussion s'arrête donc là.
De même, les libertés canadiennes sont inséparables de la destruction/marginalisation des cultures des Algonquins, Iroquois, Montagnais, Micmacs, Hurons etc.
C'est comme ça. L'histoire n'est pas une institution charitable.
"Which is the theory about the enormous differences between Spanish, French, Italian and Latin?"
— Ces différences sont énormes parce que, quand elles émergent vers le 9e siècle, elles ont déjà (selon moi) 1000 ans d'évolution derrière elles.
" The reason was a different Vulgar Latin in each country?"
— Non, elles viennent d'une langue véhiculaire cohérente et unifiée, mais qui (à mon humble opinion) a remplacé le latin avant même le début de l'Empire romain.
— Ces différences sont énormes parce que, quand elles émergent vers le 9e siècle, elles ont déjà (selon moi) 1000 ans d'évolution derrière elles.
" The reason was a different Vulgar Latin in each country?"
— Non, elles viennent d'une langue véhiculaire cohérente et unifiée, mais qui (à mon humble opinion) a remplacé le latin avant même le début de l'Empire romain.
<<Josh,
Sans Reconquista il n'y aurait ni Espagne, ni Portugal, ni castillan, ni portugais, ni catalan/valencien... La discussion s'arrête donc là.>>
Well they probably wouldn't be called that, and they definitely would have developed differently, but I think there probably would still be Romance languages in the Iberian peninsula.
<<De même, les libertés canadiennes sont inséparables de la destruction/marginalisation des cultures des Algonquins, Iroquois, Montagnais, Micmacs, Hurons etc.
C'est comme ça. L'histoire n'est pas une institution charitable.>>
Very true. I don't think a lot of people realize how much modern countries are based on the destruction of rival nationalities on the same territory.
Sans Reconquista il n'y aurait ni Espagne, ni Portugal, ni castillan, ni portugais, ni catalan/valencien... La discussion s'arrête donc là.>>
Well they probably wouldn't be called that, and they definitely would have developed differently, but I think there probably would still be Romance languages in the Iberian peninsula.
<<De même, les libertés canadiennes sont inséparables de la destruction/marginalisation des cultures des Algonquins, Iroquois, Montagnais, Micmacs, Hurons etc.
C'est comme ça. L'histoire n'est pas une institution charitable.>>
Very true. I don't think a lot of people realize how much modern countries are based on the destruction of rival nationalities on the same territory.
"<How can the core DNA of Spanish be Caesar's Latin if the grammar and syntax, morphology and pronunciation are so completely different?>"
Untrue.
Actually, it all depends on how you look at it. If you're talking strictly about phonology and accent, Italian probably is the closest to Latin. However in some areas of lexicon and grammatical forms Spanish, Romanian and even French are closer to Classical Latin than Italian is. While Latin continued to change in Italy it tended to ossify elswhere in the Roman Empire in varying degrees. Some of the most archaic Latin words and phonological features are found in Sardinian and in the Dalmatian language (Yugoslavia - extinct since 1898)
Apparently, the Romans also had some famous Latin schools in Baetica (southern Spain, around Córdoba) during the imperial period which also tended to reinforce linguistic conservatism in that part of the Iberian Peninsula. Romanization always took place in areas where there was a lot of settlement by veterans from the Roman Army. Spain was certainly a favorite retirement place for Roman veterans, especially the Costa Brava region (in Catalonia).
for example:
Dum spiro, spero. = Latin (Caesar)
Mientras espiro, espero. = Spanish
While I breathe, I hope.= English
Mentre respiro, spero. = Italian
Spanish as well possesses -coincidenty- similarities with Archaic Latin. One could argue that the Iberian Peininusula perserved proto classical-latin phonetics, verb-conjugationing and lettering of that era of which it kind of did. Besides, Spain was the first territory acquired by the Romans in the 3rd century B.C. so there's a possibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Latin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain
Untrue.
Actually, it all depends on how you look at it. If you're talking strictly about phonology and accent, Italian probably is the closest to Latin. However in some areas of lexicon and grammatical forms Spanish, Romanian and even French are closer to Classical Latin than Italian is. While Latin continued to change in Italy it tended to ossify elswhere in the Roman Empire in varying degrees. Some of the most archaic Latin words and phonological features are found in Sardinian and in the Dalmatian language (Yugoslavia - extinct since 1898)
Apparently, the Romans also had some famous Latin schools in Baetica (southern Spain, around Córdoba) during the imperial period which also tended to reinforce linguistic conservatism in that part of the Iberian Peninsula. Romanization always took place in areas where there was a lot of settlement by veterans from the Roman Army. Spain was certainly a favorite retirement place for Roman veterans, especially the Costa Brava region (in Catalonia).
for example:
Dum spiro, spero. = Latin (Caesar)
Mientras espiro, espero. = Spanish
While I breathe, I hope.= English
Mentre respiro, spero. = Italian
Spanish as well possesses -coincidenty- similarities with Archaic Latin. One could argue that the Iberian Peininusula perserved proto classical-latin phonetics, verb-conjugationing and lettering of that era of which it kind of did. Besides, Spain was the first territory acquired by the Romans in the 3rd century B.C. so there's a possibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Latin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain
The Inquisition that took place in Spain shortly after the Reconquest of Spain from the Moors by the Iberian was not directed against the Moslems or Jews but instead they were directed against the Protestant Reformers(Calvinist, Lutherans, etc.) that were sweeping across Europe. The Jews and the Moslems were expelled from the Iberian Peninsula just before the Inquisition took place.
The fervent Catholic Spaniards feared these groups' influence more than they fear the influence of the Moors and Jewish. That's they implemented the inquisition to prevebt what was happening in other parts of Europe to take place in the Spanish soil.
The fervent Catholic Spaniards feared these groups' influence more than they fear the influence of the Moors and Jewish. That's they implemented the inquisition to prevebt what was happening in other parts of Europe to take place in the Spanish soil.
Guest Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:20 am GMT
The Inquisition that took place in Spain shortly after the Reconquest of Spain from the Moors by the Iberian was not directed against the Moslems or Jews but instead they were directed against the Protestant Reformers(Calvinist, Lutherans, etc.) that were sweeping across Europe. The Jews and the Moslems were expelled from the Iberian Peninsula just before the Inquisition took place.
The fervent Catholic Spaniards feared these groups' influence more than they fear the influence of the Moors and Jewish. That's why they implemented the inquisition to prevent what was happening in other parts of Europe to take place in the Spanish soil.
BTW, the Spaniards at that time view those Christians outside the Catholic Church as "Heretics"
The Inquisition that took place in Spain shortly after the Reconquest of Spain from the Moors by the Iberian was not directed against the Moslems or Jews but instead they were directed against the Protestant Reformers(Calvinist, Lutherans, etc.) that were sweeping across Europe. The Jews and the Moslems were expelled from the Iberian Peninsula just before the Inquisition took place.
The fervent Catholic Spaniards feared these groups' influence more than they fear the influence of the Moors and Jewish. That's why they implemented the inquisition to prevent what was happening in other parts of Europe to take place in the Spanish soil.
BTW, the Spaniards at that time view those Christians outside the Catholic Church as "Heretics"
Lol!!! The Reconquista promoted religious freedom? Why did they kill anyone who admitted to being Muslim or Jewish? Why did the Inquisition start shortly after? And what does Muslim control of Spain in the Middle Ages have to do with freedom in modern Canada-Josh
Josh,
Sans Reconquista il n'y aurait ni Espagne, ni Portugal, ni castillan, ni portugais, ni catalan/valencien... La discussion s'arrête donc là.- OïL
A gracious answer. Thank-you.
Josh,
Sans Reconquista il n'y aurait ni Espagne, ni Portugal, ni castillan, ni portugais, ni catalan/valencien... La discussion s'arrête donc là.- OïL
A gracious answer. Thank-you.
Creo que están comparando Greek y Spanish pero no estoy muy seguro.
Esperemos a ver que dice Franco-Guest
Why is that? Is he an expert on Greek?
Esperemos a ver que dice Franco-Guest
Why is that? Is he an expert on Greek?
"On prétend que des mots germaniques (comme <guerre>/<guerra>/<war>) sont entrés dans les langues romanes après la chute de l'empire romain. Mais on les trouve dans TOUS les dialectes italiens et ibériques, même là où les Germains ne sont jamais passés! Conclusion: ces mots faisaient partie depuis déjà des siècles de la langue parlée dans tout l'Empire. "
Oh, is that why posters chime in here with "French is germanic." or something similar? I never understood that. I'm not a linguist, but I kind of think all romance languages are just some form of Latin to some degree. Some languages seem to be further from the source. To me, Romanian is not immediately understandable, unlike Catalan and Occitan.
Oh, is that why posters chime in here with "French is germanic." or something similar? I never understood that. I'm not a linguist, but I kind of think all romance languages are just some form of Latin to some degree. Some languages seem to be further from the source. To me, Romanian is not immediately understandable, unlike Catalan and Occitan.