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Are Portuguese and Brazilian the same language?
J.C. wrote "...First time I heard a Portuguese person speaking I had to speak in English because I couldn't understand..."
Sentences like this are the best proof that brazilians do not speak/understand Portuguese. Furthermore, they seem to be very proud of that.
Do the Brazilians understand Brazilian Portuguese or whatever they call it, at least?
Do the Brazilians understand Brazilian Portuguese or whatever they call it, at least?
Good question...lol
<<Angolan Portuguese, is nearly indistinguishable from peninsular Portuguese (especially the pronunciation). They follow the European standard very closely, and don't speak any "creole"-type derivation.
This is due to Angola being a portuguese colony untill 1975, and having extended contact with them. They speak standard European Portuguese, with none of the features of the Brazilian language.>> Hmmm, and what in the world are YOU talking about? I don't know what is it that you consider "features of the Brazilian PORTUGUESE language". You're right on the part that Angolan study and learn the standard European Portuguese, but it's certainly NOT nearly indistinguishable ! And I'm not talking just about some sounds which are more similar to Brazilian Portuguese than European Portuguese, but also about words used in both Angola and Brazil and not Portugal, and the way a sentence is sometimes put together. And also, I'm not talking about people who studied in Portugal (Agostinho Neto!), live in the capital or speak on the television, I'm referring to the average people. <<J.C. wrote "...First time I heard a Portuguese person speaking I had to speak in English because I couldn't understand..." Sentences like this are the best proof that brazilians do not speak/understand Portuguese. Furthermore, they seem to be very proud of that.>> Well, if a Brazilian from the South meets one from the North, they'll probably also be surprised at first. All Brazilian visiting or living in Portugal understand what people say very well, and hey, without having to learn a different language! As it was said before many times, it has to do with exposure.
Quoting Guest 1 : «How do you think languages diverge and split off into different languages? Because of important enough changes in phonetics. Syntax changes much more slowly.»
But before those changes occur in syntax, the language remains the same. We are far from major divergences occuring in Portuguese syntax (in the same extent they have occured between Dutch and Afrikaans). For the moment, it is the same language; in a couple of generations, who knows. If different phonetics would be enough in order to language splitting, then "Azorean", "Madeirense" and even "Algarvian" would exist as separate languages since a long time. Quoting Guest 2 : «Then Brazilians neither understand nor speak Portuguese (nor the other variants of the Portuguese language, e.g. African Portuguese). I do not see any contradiction between your post and mine.» You're ignoring the last part of my post: it's a matter of phonetics, only. If they read without problems the same sentence they cannot understand when spoken, then they do speak the same language. PS : Why almost is everybody writing anonimously in this forum??? It makes coherent conversations much more difficult.
<<Are you from Brazil, zatsu?>>
No Guest, I'm not. I lived in Brazil for a few years though, and I miss it there. On the Angolan Portuguese subject, here are some musics by Angolan artists: Ouro Negro. Amanhã http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8JdYfaUBZo Ouro Negro. Lindeza http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9nj3Y2rkL0 Luiz Visconde. Chofer de Praça http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=casmica8924
<<Eu comecei a estudar japonês em 1990 e ao entrar na faculdade em 91(fevereiro) comecei a falar razoavelmente no início de 1992, ou seja, levei um ano pra "soltar a língua". Quando vim ao Japão pela primeira vez em 1993 entendia tudo o que me diziam e também falava sobre qualquer assunto. Infelizmente esqueci como falar em japonês padrão pois todos à minha volta (Incluindo esposa) falam em Osaka-ben.(Só não posso chamar o dialeto de "kinki japanese" hehe) >>
J.C., isso é um verdadeiro prodígio!! =D 2 ou 3 anos é muito bom para falar e entender Japonês à vontade!^^ Você me encheu de motivação agora. Eu estou a aprender há mais tempo do que isso, mas acho que perco muito tempo a aprender kanji. Talvez devesse dedicar-me mais só à parte oral para avançar mais rapidamente... Kinki é uma região perto de Osaka, não é? E nos livros e legendas não é usado o Japonês padrão?
<<And I'm not talking just about some sounds which are more similar to Brazilian Portuguese than European Portuguese, but also about words used in both Angola and Brazil and not Portugal, and the way a sentence is sometimes put together.>>
There are NO similarities between Brazilian Portuguese, and the language spoken in Angola, or anywhere in lusophone Africa. Brazilians are the ONLY people that speak the way they do; for the most part, portuguese spoken in africa is much closer to the european standard. All the main features that seperate Brazilian portuguese, and Peninsular portuguese (the syntactic and morphological features, as well as phonology) don't exist in Angola and the rest of africa.
Loris: "If different phonetics would be enough in order to language splitting, then "Azorean", "Madeirense" and even "Algarvian" would exist as separate languages since a long time."
What?!!! The phonetics of Portuguese spoken in Madeira and The Azores as well as in Algarve is essentially the same as that of Portuguese spoken in other regions of Portugal. On the contrary, the Phonetics of Brazilian Spanish is strongly divergent from Portuguese. Guest: "Brazilians are the ONLY people that speak the way they do". "All the main features that seperate Brazilian portuguese, and Peninsular portuguese (the syntactic and morphological features, as well as phonology) don't exist in Angola and the rest of africa." I totally agree with you.
<<There are NO similarities between Brazilian Portuguese, and the language spoken in Angola, or anywhere in lusophone Africa. Brazilians are the ONLY people that speak the way they do; for the most part, portuguese spoken in africa is much closer to the european standard.>>
I'm usually a nice and carefree person, but let me tell you that only very stupid and ignorant people are 100% sure of things. Who are you anyway to say anything, Guest #8946539.09? You're clearly very biased. If you want to believe Brazilian just fell from the sky and started to create their unique words and sounds (and convince others as well!), you're, of course, free to do so. <<All the main features that seperate Brazilian portuguese, and Peninsular portuguese (the syntactic and morphological features, as well as phonology) don't exist in Angola and the rest of africa.>> The syntactic and morphological differences that you mention (morphological?? Care to share some examples?) are ludicrous and not enough to SEPARATE both variants. In fact, even if they're not commonly used here or there, they've to be accepted because they're part of the language as a whole. Of course there are similarities between BP and AP, but I'm not surprised you don't know or don't want to see that. <<I totally agree with you.>> You're probably the same person as the other guest, but in any case please don't forget to take your pills before you post.
Milton: "American English is not corrupted British English, but a separate (and predominant) norm of English, with its own orthography, pronunciation, grammar and vocabulary.
The same is true of Brazilian Portuguese, which has been changing gradually since the early days (1500)." But americans understand British English. And hispanic americans understand European Spanish. But you brazilians predicate that you are unable to understand European Portuguese, up to the ridiculous extent of having to speak English with portuguese people (see the Post by J.C.). If this is true, then you brazilians do not speak Portuguese.
Zatsu: "You're probably the same person as the other guest, but in any case please don't forget to take your pills before you post."
You can disagree with other here. No problem. But you have to remain civilised as everyone here does. You are disqualifying yourself.
<<You're clearly very biased. If you want to believe Brazilian just fell from the sky and started to create their unique words and sounds (and convince others as well!), you're, of course, free to do so. >>
Brazils linguistic differences have to do with it not having contact with portugual for centuries, by contrast Angola was a portuguese colony untill 1975, with their language not deviating much at all from the european standard. <<The syntactic and morphological differences that you mention (morphological?? Care to share some examples?).>> - Brazil's loss of "Tu'', and the correct associated verb conjugations. - Brazil's loss of the progressive 'estar a + infinitive' construct - i.e ''estou a fazer". - Brazilians place pronouns before the verb instead of after - i.e 'eu te amo', instead of 'eu amo-te'. etc, etc.... Angola does not share any of the above differences that are unique to Brazil, and more importantly the standard phonology in Angola and the rest of lusophone Africa is the European standard.
- Brazilians place pronouns before the verb instead of after - i.e 'eu te amo', instead of 'eu amo-te'.
Like in Spanish. |