Spanish and Italian are much closer than Italian and French

greg   Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:22 pm GMT
ADDENDUM

Apparemment il y aurait d'autres graphies en sarde : <late>, <latti> & <latte>.

Intéressant : un langue d'Oil, le wallon, suit le même schéma que { Oc — Ca — Lo — Pi — Em }. On trouve Wa <lècê>, ce qui tend à prouver (si la prononciation suit la graphie qui compend une voyelle finale) que toutes les langues de la Romanie septentrionale d'Europe (Oïl, apritan, rhéto-roman etc) n'ont pas forcément connu la perte du <e(m)> latin original.
Ladino <lat>.

Le piedmontais [lajt] s'écrirait <làit>.
Le lombard [lat_S] pourrait s'écrire <latt> ou <lacc> dans les variantes occidentales de cette langue.
Romagnol <làt>.

Valencien <llet>. Aragonais <lei>.

Le vénitien serait <late>.

On trouverait <laat> dans la région parmesane et <lât> dans la région bolognaise. Bergame : <lac'>.

Galicien <leite>, asturien <lleche>.
Latino   Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:48 pm GMT
ESPAGNOL **PORTUGAIS**LATIN CLASSIQUE**LATIN TARDIF**FRANÇAIS**ITALIEN

ARENA**AREIA**ARENA(sable)**SABULUM(sable)**SABLE**SABBIA

CABEZA**CABEÇA**CAPUT(tête)**TESTA(tesson de poterie)**TÊTE**TESTA

COMER**COMER**COMEDERE(manger)**MANDUCARE(bâfrer)**MANGER**MANGIARE

HERVIR**FERVER**FERVERE(bouillir)**BULLIRE(faire des bulles)**BOUILLIR**BOLLIRE

HERMOSO**FORMOSO**FORMOSUS(beau)**BELLUS(joli)**BEAU**BELLO

HOMBRO**OMBRO**HUMERUS(épaule)**SPATULA(spatule)**ÉPAULE**SPALDA

MESA**MESA**MENSA(table)**TABULA(planche)**TABLE**TAVOLA




Mais parfois ce sont les langues romanes d'Ibérie qui s'éloignent du latin classique :

LC <extinguere> —> Fr <éteindre> vs LV <appacare> —> Es/Po <apagar>

LC <tacere> —> Fr <(se) taire> / It <tacere> vs LV <callare> —> Es <callar> / Po <calar(-se)>.

LC <galbinus> —> Fr <jaune> / It <giallo> vs LV <amarillus> —> Es <amarillo> / Po <amarelo>.




AS YOU CAN SEE SPANISH AND PORTUGUESE PREFERED CLASSICAL WORDS RATHER THEN VULGAR LATIN.

and well spanish still applies vulgar and classical words for the same thing for instance;

(it)arrivare (fr)arriver (spanish) llegar
(it)prendere (fr)prendre (spanish)tomar/beber
(it)parlare (fr)parler (spanish) hablar/parlar (not utlized a lot, R.A.E has this in their dictionary.)
(it)partire (fr)partir (spanish)irse/partir
(it)agire (fr)agir (spanish) actuar
(it)finire (fr)finir (spanish)terminar
(it)mettere (fr)mettre (spanish)poner/meter


This is something that was discussed on my thread. By greg..credits go to him. And as well to bernard.
Latino   Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:11 pm GMT
Another interesting finding, that I've posted on my thread is that there's a old venetian dialect spoken in mexico (puebla) by as far as 5,000 speakers that were transfered from italy to mexico in 1882.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION

http://orbilat.com/Languages/Venetan/Dialects/Chipilo.html

Another interesting fact....would be

Evidence for pronunciation of Classical Latin is often difficult to interpret.
Orthography is conventionalized, and the contemporary Roman grammarians’ comments lack clarity, so that to a considerable extent it is necessary to extrapolate from later developments in Romance in order to describe it. On the whole, linguists think that Latin probably sounded something like Italian, though some features make it close to Castillian Spanish.

http://orbilat.com/Languages/Latin/Grammar/Latin-Pronunciation-Syllable-Accent.html

Latin is an inflected language.
the grammatical relations between the words are shown by changes in their forms.

Most often the inflectional changes take place in the termination of the word:

amor love, amôre for love;
amo I love, amas you love, amâvi I loved, amavisti you loved.
The inflectional changes may occur also in the body of the word or at its beginning:
vinco I vanquish : vîci I vanquished;
canto I sing : cecini I sang.

as you can it has more spanish influences and less italian.

other words to consider..

The primitive adverbs are short words referring to circumstances of place, time and manner, as the followng ones:

haud no
jam already spanish (ya)
mox soon
non no, not (no)
nunc now
nunquam never (nunca)
quando when? (cuando)
sic yes, thus (si)
ubi where?
unde where? (donde)

others comparison.

(castilian spanish)

Padre nuestro que estás en los cielos, santificado sea tu nombre. Venga tu Reino. Hágase tu voluntad, así en la tierra como en el cielo. El pan nuestro de cada día, danosle hoy y perdónanos nuestras deudas, así como nosotros perdonamos a nuestros deudores. Y no nos dejes caer en la tentación, más líbranos de mal. Amen.

(Latin)

Pater noster, qui est in coelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum, fiat voluntas tua sicut in coelo et in terra. Panem nostrum cottidianum da nobis hodie et dimitte nobis dedita nostra, sicut nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in temptationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.

(Portuguese)

Pai nosso que estás nos céos, santificádo seja o teu nome, venha o teu Reino, seja feita a tua vontade, assim na terra, como no céu. O pão nosso de cada dia nos dá hoje, e perdoa-nós as nossas dívidas, assim como nós perdoamos aos nossos devedores, e não nos induzas à tentação, mas livra-nos do mal. Amen.

(catalan)

Pare nostre del cel, sigui santificat el teu nom; vingui el teu Regne; faci’s la teva voluntat, com al cel, així també a la terra. Dóna’ns avui el nostre pa de cada dia; i perdona’ns les nostres ofenses, com també nosaltres hem perdonat els qui ens ofenen; i no deixis que caiguem en la temptació, ans deslliura’ns del Maligne. Amèn.

(english)

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

(italian)

Padre nostro che sei nei cieli, sia santificato il tuo nome; venga il tuo regno, sia fatta la tua volontà, come in cielo così in terra. Dacci oggi il nostro pane quotidiano, rimetti a noi i nostri debiti, come noi li rimettiamo ai nostri debitori e non ci indurre in tentazione, ma liberaci dal male. Amen.

(Sicilian)

Patri nostru cca si 'n celu, sia santificatu 'u nomi teu; venga 'u to rregnu, sia fatta 'a tò voluntati, comu 'n celu accussì 'n terra. Dani oggi 'u nostru pani quotidianu, rimeti a niàutri i nostri debiti, comu niàutri li rimettemu ai nostri debitori e nun ni lassàri cadiri 'nta'a tentazziuni e libèrani d'u mali. Amen.

(sardinian)

Babbu nostu ki ses in is Celus, santificau siat su nòmini tuu, bengat a nosu su reinu tuu, siat fatta sa voluntadi tua comenti in su celu aici in sa terra. Su pani nostu de dogna di donanosidd' oi, e perdonanosì is peccaus nostus, comenti nosaturus perdonaus is depidoris nostus, no nosi lessis arrui in sa tentatzione, ma lìberanosì de tottu male. Amen.

(french)

French Notre Père, qui es aux cieux, que ton nom soit sanctifié, que ton règne vienne, que ta volonté soit faite sur la terre comme au ciel. Donne-nous aujourd’hui notre pain de ce jour. Pardonne-nous nos offences comme nous pardonnons aussi à ceux qui nous ont offensés. Et ne nous soumets pas à la tentation, mais délivre-nous du mal, car c’est à toi qu’appartiennent le règne, la puissance et la gloire, aux siècles des siècles. Amen.



I THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE INTERESTING AND STIMULATING TO READ AND COMPARE.

PRAISES TO ALL!
Latino   Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:35 pm GMT
(castilian spanish)

Padre nuestro que estás en los cielos, santificado sea tu nombre. Venga tu Reino. Hágase tu voluntad, así en la tierra como en el cielo. El pan nuestro de cada día, danosle hoy y perdónanos nuestras deudas, así como nosotros perdonamos a nuestros deudores. Y no nos dejes caer en la tentación, más líbranos de mal. Amen.

(can be said like this to)

Padre nuestro que estas en los cielos, santificado sea tu nombre. Venga tu Reino. Hágase tu voluntad, así en la tierra como en el cielo. El pan nuestro de cada día, danosle hoy dia y perdónanos nuestras deudas, así como nosotros perdonamos a nuestros deudores. Y no nos induces caer en la tentación, más líbranos de mal. Amen.

(which adds "hoy dia" and "inducas") which comes from latin; "hodie" meaning today spanish (hoy dia, hoy, ahora, hoy en dia) and "induces" comes from latin "inducas" which means induce

Didn't I mentioned before, spanish acquired a lot of words for the same meaning. So it all depends on the sentance and structure..

(Latin)

Pater noster, qui est in coelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum, fiat voluntas tua sicut in coelo et in terra. Panem nostrum cottidianum da nobis hodie et dimitte nobis dedita nostra, sicut nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in temptationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
Cicero   Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:56 pm GMT
Ecclesiastical Latin =

<Pater noster, qui est in coelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum, fiat voluntas tua sicut in coelo et in terra. Panem nostrum cottidianum da nobis hodie et dimitte nobis dedita nostra, sicut nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in temptationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen. >

Ecclesiastical Latin differs from classical Latin especially by the introduction of new idioms and new words. These characteristic differences are due to the origin and purpose of ecclesiastical Latin.
greg   Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:03 pm GMT
Cicero : tout à fait d'accord. C'est d'ailleurs l'Église de l'époque carolingienne qui est à l'origine du scriptolatin médiéval et de l'orolatin médiéval.

Latino : « Evidence for pronunciation of Classical Latin is often difficult to interpret. Orthography is conventionalized, and the contemporary Roman grammarians’ comments lack clarity, so that to a considerable extent it is necessary to extrapolate from later developments in Romance in order to describe it. »
Absolument ! Voir remarque plus haut pour comprendre la relecture, réinterprétation et réinvention du « latin » : construction du latin médiéval en fonction de l'idée (erronée) que les carolingiens se faisaient du scriptolatin classique et de l'orolatin classique.

Latino : « On the whole, linguists think that Latin probably sounded something like Italian, though some features make it close to Castillian Spanish. »
Là je ne suis pas d'accord car cette phrase escamote les concepts de diachronicité et de variation synchronique qui sont pourtant essentiels dès que l'on envisage une comparaison interlangues.
Aldo   Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:24 pm GMT
Cual es la pronunciacion de "ae" en latin como el la palabra "Caesar" ?
greg   Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:06 pm GMT
Aldo : la prononciation ***RÉELLE *** de l'orolatin dépend des époques et des espaces envisagés.

Il est probable qu'en orolatin médiéval (ou oromédiolatin) « Cæsar » devait se prononcer [kaesar].
Just an article reader   Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:22 pm GMT
I'm a sixteen year old Spanish boy from Valencia.I want to express in your conversation that I can understand Italian people who are speaking as well as I can understand French people who are writing.Due to the fact that French has influenced from Celtic languages on its pronunciation, I can understand it when it is only written, not spoken.But I can really understand exactly when Italian people are both speaking and writing.So I can say that Spanish and Italian languages are much closer than Spanish and French.Also I lived in Italy for 4 years and had no difficulty of understanding their speech.I hesitated a little whether to study Italian before starting to live in Italy, but then after watching just one movie in Italian I saw that I can understand Italian perfectly without taking courses.During my school life in Italy, I saw that Spaniards dont have to take Italian courses for living in Italy.
guest   Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:20 pm GMT
Do you understand this?, just a reader. A only spanish-speaker not

rutto colpo! Cap Rooney,tre volte in testa alla lega quarterback trentottenne e astrodel mister Tony D'Amato, è a terra.Non vedi che è ferito?
Ogni tifoso del Miami Sharksha i crampi allo stomaco.Guardiamolo di nuovo. Cap Rooney è a terra, dolorante.
Chi ci protegge lì?
Torniamo alle condizioni di Cap dopo la pubblicità. Chiamo la barella?.
Mi stai sanguinando sul vestito.
Dategli il casco.Ti servirà, Tyler.
Questa la portiamo a casa senza di te.
Com'è essere nessuno un giorno e poi essere conosciuto da tutti?
Una stella lo ero sempre.Solo che voi non lo sapevate.
Chi vuol pensare ai blitzes quando hai i tuoi nipotini sulle ginocchia?
Ecco perché voglio fare I'allenatore al liceo.
I ragazzi non sanno niente. Vogliono solo giocare.
I proprietari ti vorrebbero a New York per una riunione.
Mi hanno frollato, ma ce la faccio.
Non lo dimenticherò mai, sai?
Catalanòfon   Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:12 am GMT
Our young friend from Valencia is not a Spanish-only speaker. Valencian (the name Catalan receives in the Community of Valencia) is compulsory for all students. So even if Spanish is his home language he's been exposed to Valencian (both in school, television and the street) from an early age (kindergarten at least).

A bilingual Valencian (Catalan) Spanish speaker can obviously understand Italian quite easily, as I have said before.

I think my Valencian friend will agree it is more difficult for somebody from Albacete or Seville to understand Italian.
Guest   Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:17 am GMT
guest Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:20 pm GMT
Do you understand this?, just a reader. A only spanish-speaker not

rutto colpo! Cap Rooney,tre volte in testa alla lega quarterback trentottenne e astrodel mister Tony D'Amato, è a terra.Non vedi che è ferito?
Ogni tifoso del Miami Sharksha i crampi allo stomaco.Guardiamolo di nuovo. Cap Rooney è a terra, dolorante.
Chi ci protegge lì?
Torniamo alle condizioni di Cap dopo la pubblicità. Chiamo la barella?.
Mi stai sanguinando sul vestito.
Dategli il casco.Ti servirà, Tyler.
Questa la portiamo a casa senza di te.
Com'è essere nessuno un giorno e poi essere conosciuto da tutti?
Una stella lo ero sempre.Solo che voi non lo sapevate.
Chi vuol pensare ai blitzes quando hai i tuoi nipotini sulle ginocchia?
Ecco perché voglio fare I'allenatore al liceo.
I ragazzi non sanno niente. Vogliono solo giocare.
I proprietari ti vorrebbero a New York per una riunione.
Mi hanno frollato, ma ce la faccio.
Non lo dimenticherò mai, sai?

Se è per questo....nemmeno un italiano!!!!
Guest   Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:03 am GMT
Latino   Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:40 pm GMT
French for me is understandable when written. When spoken it's like a maze of what?

Italian is rather more understandable if one knows the basic of words and plural etc. and compares them to spanish and so on. But the vocal and inflection are the same or if not twined like.

Portuguese is rather MORE understandable if written, again one should know the difference between words like "fazer" and "gosta" which mean
"hacer and gusta" in spanish etc. It's rather easy...But when portuguese is spoken it has nasal inflections and at times it's rather difficult.

I'd say French and Italian are very alike in culture/food. Language is comparison is more like it's understandable for both if WRITTEN.

Spanish and Italian are TWINED in language. But cultures rather differ...
in a sense. Spanish for a italian speaker is rather "proclaim" as an ITALIAN BEING DRUNK AND SPEAKING. but evenly drunk it's still more understood then it being very nasal and muting words and sounding very quick in discourse etc.

Hence, spanish and italian are the closet. While catalan is probably too.
Guest   Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:44 pm GMT
As a both portuguese and spanish speaker, i must say spanish and portuguese have the most similarity in terms of language. I hear spanish music and spanish movies without subtitles, and there are many spaniards who go shopping to the place i work, and i always understand what they are telling me.