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JORDI
"all Catalans have to learn a language that isn't theirs."
Esto prueba lo que dije antes, estos fundamentalistas nacionalistas solo consideran catalan a los que tienen por lengua materna ese idioma
Això prova el que vaig dir abans, aquests fonamentalistes nacionalistes solament consideren català als quals tenen per llengua materna aquest idioma
"how much each community gives the State "
Quant dóna Catalunya a l'estat?Gens, això ho aporta un com a ciutadà. És a dir, jo com a ciutadà espanyol pago la meva renda i aquesta renda va al conjunt de l'estat i després l'estat la distribuïx com creu oportú però no hi ha ningú que va agafant els diners dels catalans, els diners dels madrilenys i tira els comptes a veure que aporta cadascun, perquè aquest discurs és un discurs molt perillós perquè dintre de Catalunya qui aporta mes, Barcelona o Tarragona. Si aporta mes Barcelona ha de rebre més Barcelona que tarragona?, i dintre de Barcelona qui aporta més?, el barri que es va enfonsar o el barri on viuen els sectors mes poderosos de Cataluña?
Que es lo que aporta cataluña a la solidaridad estatal?. Nada, eso lo aporta uno como ciudadano. Es decir, yo como ciudadano español pago mi renta y esa renta va al conjunto del estado y despues el estado la distribuye como cree oportuno pero no hay nadie que va cogiendo el dinero de los catalanes, el dinero de los madrileños y echa las cuentas a ver que aporta cada uno, porque ese discurso es un discurso muy peligroso porque dentro de cataluña quién aporta mas, barcelona o tarragona. Si aporta mas barcelona tiene que llevarse mas barcelona que tarragona?, y dentro de barcelona quién aporta mas?, el barrio que se hundió o el barrio donde viven los sectores mas poderosos de cataluña?
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I've said that Catalan speakers are happy learning other languages, starting with Spanish, the language of the Spanish state.
I've said that Catalonia is the place in Spain where you'll find a greater percentage of multi-lingual speakers. I've said that Catalans want to live in Catalan in their homeland. To live in Catalan people have to know Catalan. How could you live in English is people around you didn't know English?
This is what I said and I would ask Brennus to realise that my posters are writing in Catalan and Castilian and not in English.
My messages were erased when I answered in Catalan so I decided to continue in English.
The fundamentalists are the people who think that some human beings have to be bilingual from birth while they remain monolingual.
That is logic. The rest is politics.
Spain is a multi-cultural and multi-linguistic society. We are not the only case in the world and I don't agree that one language is better than the others.
Why is it that those who are dominated are made to look like dominators?
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Catalanofon Im glad to see in your last post that you are coming to your senses and drop the topic on the relative wealth of catalonia (a short apology wouldnt be out of place though :)). Who can doubt of the right of catalan people to use their language at the very least in Catalonia, and probably in higher instances as well.
What noone can guarantee is that catalan people will live in a catalan speaking environment whether in catalonia or outside, because the environment is made out of the personal choice of millions of individuals in catalonia and outside. I can agree that public bodies in catalonia make an effort to encourage the recovery of catalan, but its harder to accept that they embark on a deliberate campaign to change linguistic habits of it citizens:
"I have one first language not two and I want it to be the usual one in its homeland"
That attitude is the answer to your question "Why is it that those who are dominated are made to look like dominators?". It might not be obvious for you, but for the 40% plus that have spanish as their main language in catalonia their inheritance (as well as the joining forces with spain at large) is as important as yours is for you, and have the same right not to be crushed by public policy as catalan speakers have in the wider context of spain
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Canviant de tema, Jordi. Estaria bé aquesta transcripció fonètica en espanyol del català?. He representat el so de la schwa amb una a, és per a fer-me una idea de com sonaria. si coneixes alguna pàgina web on pugui escoltar catalan mentre ho llegeixo t'estaria agraït
"Si als veïns de Barcelona els preocupa que l'ordenança sobre el civisme és molt restrictiva, sempre poden venir al meu barri, el Guinardó, a orinar, a vomitar, a encendre fogueres al carrer i tot allò que no puguin fer a la resta de Barcelona. Almenys això és el que passa assíduament als voltants del mercat del Guinardó des de fa anys, sense que la Guàrdia Urbana, la Policia i els Mossos facin res per evitar-ho, malgrat les denúncies dels veïns." (El periodico)
Si als veíns da barselona al preucupa ka lurdenansa sobra al sivisma es molt restrictiva sempra poden veni al meu barri, al guinardó, a uriná, a vomitá, a ansendrá fugueras al carré y totallò que no puguin fe a la resta de barselona. Almenis aixó es al ka passa assiduamént als vultánts dal mercat dal guinardó desda fa anis, sensa ka la guardia urbana, la pulisia y als mosos fasin res paravitaru, malgrát las denúnsias dals veíns
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Everybody knows Catalonia receives lots of subsidies from the rest of Spain; that Catalans, en masse, have flooded other Spanish autonomies because they can't live at home (Catalonia has received about 3 million immigrants in the past 50 years and that explains the situation of the language, specially in the metropolitan area of Barcelona but not in all the country); that Catalonia receives much more that it gives to the rest of the state, that Barcelona is a dull, dreadful, boring and empoverished city; that Catalan business and exports-imports to the world are non-existent, that culture language and culture is folkloric and regional compared to the big themes chosen by those who write Castilian etc, etc. etc. LOL
Are you happy, now?
Regarding the text you've chosen it's all about people pissing, vomiting and lighting bonfires in the street, somewhere in Guinardó (Barcelona). It's clearly a revolting, mediaeval scene that can only happen in awkward Barcelona. We should be happy to have received civilisation from the rest of the peninsula (not Portugal, Andorra nor Gibraltar, of course.) You won't expect me, of course, to make a phonetic transcription for you. The only thing I can tell those who are interested is that there must be ONLINE radio stations and that the most popular television in Catalonia is TV3 in Catalan (watched by as many native Castilian speakers as you can imagine living in Catalonia). It's funny to see Castilian-Spanish nationalists defending their cause in Catalan. That's new and it means Catalan has even more local prestige than I thought.
The fact is you speak lightly on that 40% of immigrants (not all are Castilian speakers and many come from Northern Africa, Eastern Europe, Central Africa, Asia and other places), who often adopt Catalan in the first and second generation and who become as native Catalan as those whose families have been here for centuries. I understand pretty much the same happens in the US, where second and third generation people of Spanish speaking background become native English speakers. It even happens in London, Paris or Madrid.
It is absolutely true that Catalan children end up their primary school knowing both Catalan and Castilian. The fact is "Castilian-Spanish nationalism" would want them to have a much better level of Spanish than Catalan. What the Catalan system ensures is that the knowledge of both languages be at the same level. The presence of Castilian and the State is already strong enough in Catalonia as it is.
The fact is a Catalan family moving to Madrid cannot have their children learning Catalan in school. I have friends who moved to Sweden and the Swedish government ensured they children could carry on with Catalan language and culture in school. Some Spaniards will be surprised that they didn't choose Castilian. Well, we know what choices are all about, don't we?
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De hecho, desde el principio supe que eras Jordi por tus extensos y aburridos comentarios en ingles, frances y catalán aquel tocahuevos que se largó hace unos meses de este foro y que dijo que nunca más iba a volver.
Bueno, Jordi, no tengo ni puñetera idea de Catalan y nunca me ha interesado aprenderlo, tan solo te estaba vacilando. Es tan fácil engañar a un catalán que el solemne bobo de zapatero que mira que es bobo, está engañando a toda la "clase" (que de clase no tiene un pelo) catalana.
http://www.internostrum.com/tradquadtext.php
Es una buena página web para que los pueblerinos catalanes piensen que somos de los suyos. LOL. Y para que después digan que los traductores automáticos no sirven.
Hala, a seguir quejandose, que eso lo hacéis muy bien los catalanitos
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Of course I knew you were using an electronic translator. There were too many syntax errors and small things. I just thought it was funny to have a Castilian-Spanish nationalist taking the trouble of translating his things to Catalan and pretending he was Catalan. 99% of the fuss about Catalan in Catalonia comes from outside Catalonia.
My Español-Castellano friend tells me I'm a "tocahuevos" (a balls toucher) meaning, of course, a nuisance. Nevertheless, I can tell you I'm more much useful outside of this forum.
Yes, of course, we complain all the time and we should be thankful for your kind protection. You make it extremely difficult for us to be Spanish but yes, we are much more Spanish than you are and we always have been. Simply because we're Catalans.
I que et fotin! (fotre in Catalan, fotre in Occitan, foutre in French and "joder" in Spanish with a hard harsh "j").
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Tus propios comentarios anteriores te delatan. Te habías creido que era uno de los tuyos. No me extraña que mientas, todo catalanoparlante lo hace.
" only answered in Catalan to a "Guest" who sent me messages in Catalan, or didn't you realise it"
"They could, at least, serve the purpose of comparing Catalan and Castilian and many of our readers can read Romance languages as has been proven elsewhere"
"I told my Catalan friend that views such as this is what makes some Catalans want to be independent since they don't feel at ease."
Un catalanoparlante diciendo que es mas español que un "castellano", ve y haztelo ver.(para esta gente castellano es aquel que vive fuera de cataluña)
" we are much more Spanish than you are and we always have been. Simply because we're Catalans".
La lógica esta es abrumadora.
"I que et fotin!"
Se nota que tus padres no te enseñaron español en las antipodas. En español se dice "que te jodan" y con mas contundencia "que te follen"
"I que et fotin" Catalan
"Y que te follen" Spanish
Por cierto, te has vuelto mucho mas radical y grosero que la ultima vez que estuviste por aqui. No me digas que tienes una empresa de cava :)
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Brennus, as you can see I answer in English to Castilian Spanish monolingual messages.
VivaEspaña my sense of irony is much higher than yours and it includes following uyour game. Remember I was brought up in an Anglo-Saxon culture of Catalan parents.
I agree my parents didn't teach mean Castilian in the Antipodes. How could they. They're Catalan!
And I did say "fotre" is "joder" in Castilian and, of course, "follar", specially used by less traditional and younger generations.
Did you know where selling all our "cava" (Catalan champagne) to the rest of Spain and that you've been drinking Catalan cava with an Extremeña, Valencian or Asturian label. You won't deny we're good at business, and yes my father sells cava all over Spain (LOL)
Look we were Spanish as long ago as you were. It's not my fault if you usurped the word and made it a small regional thing.
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Why is the independence movement of Quebec supported and not the independence movement of Catalonia?
To an "evil anglo" (hahahaha), it looks very suspicious. Had Catalonia been a part of Britain, might the reaction be different?
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It is weird how you can make just a single comment and it explodes into a fight of words among the people of Spain. I think its good that Spain is a multi-ethnic country. It adds to the flavor of the people. Spain as a whole is a country of many languages. It is kind of sad that the attitude of castillian speakers being monolingual like most americans isn't good. I heard someine comment on a past message that the spanish refuse to understand Catalan and Portuguese. Is this saying that all a Castillian speaker has to do is just concentrate and listen and they can kind of understand Catalan because there has been others in this forum that have insisted that Catalan is completly unintelligable to Castillian. Too bad the same attitudes about castillian monolinguist have influenced the attitudes of american castillian speakers.
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Literacy
According to the 2001 Linguistic Census [15], about 5,900,000 people in Catalonia, nearly 95% of residents, understand the Catalan language. The percentage of people aged two and older who can speak, read and write Catalan is as follows:
Knowledge of Catalan
Ability Individuals Percentage
Understands 5,872,202 94.5%
Speaks 4,630,640 74.5%
Reads 4,621,404 74.4%
Writes 3,093,223 49.8%
Population 6,215,281 100%
Over the last 20 years, knowledge of Catalan has advanced significantly in all these areas, with the ability to write it having experienced the most pronounced increase, from 31.6% of the population in 1986 to 49.8% in 2001.
By age groups, those between 10 and 29 have the higher level of Catalan-language literacy (e.g., 98.2% aged 10–14 understand it, and 85.2% can write it); this is attributed to these individuals having received their full education in Catalan.
Geographically, Catalan is most understood in northwest Catalonia (Alt Pirineu, Val d'Aran), at 97.4%, followed by south and western Catalonia, whereas Barcelona's metropolitan area sees the lowest knowledge, at 93.8%. The situation is analogous for written-language skills, with central Catalonia scoring the highest percentages (61.4%), and Barcelona the lowest (46.4%).
Barcelona is one of the centres of the Spanish book industry in Spanish and the main one for Catalan-language publishing.
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Social Use
According to a study carried out in 2003 by the Generalitat de Catalunya [16], Catalan is used by 50.1% of the population in everyday situations.
Significantly, over 55% of respondents use Spanish to address their parents (versus 42% who choose Catalan). This is attributed to massive immigration from southern Spain from the second half of the 20th century until the 1980s, as a consequence of which many Catalans have one or both parents from outside Catalonia. However, a majority (52.6%) use Catalan with their children (42.3% Spanish). This can be attributed to some Spanish-speaking citizens shifting from their mother tongue to Catalan at home.
Outside the family, 48.6% of the population indicate that they address strangers exclusively or preferentially in Catalan, while the proportion of those who use Spanish is 41.7%. 8.6% claim to use both equally.
See Catalan language for further information.
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« Bien sûr que la France existait en 1213 mais son territoire n'était pas le même qu'à présent. Tu sais bien que Nice a été rattachée a la France en 1860! »
Certes. Mais la Flandre en faisait partie : http://www.tu-dresden.de/sulcifra/frankreich/ma/gesch/xeme.gif et http://www.tu-dresden.de/sulcifra/frankreich/ma/gesch/1300.gif .
Et la Catalogne a un temps fait partie du royaume de Francie-Occidentale : http://www.tu-dresden.de/sulcifra/frankreich/ma/gesch/843.gif .
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Certes. Et la Provence à un temps faisait partie de la Catalogne. Voci le pourquoi le drapeau provençal sont les quatre barres rouges sur champ d'or des comtes de Barcelona.
C'est l'histoire! Toujours si compliquée et mal enseignée par le pouvoir présent.
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Catalanòfon : la Provence n'a jamais fait partie de la Catalogne. Raimond-Bérenger III de Catalogne a pris le titre de comte de Provence — sous le nom de Raimond-Bérenger Ier —, car la maison de Barcelone a reçu par mariage le titre des comtes de Provence. Mais la Provence d'alors n'était pas que comtale : il y avait également le marquisat de Provence (terre vassale du Saint-Empire Romain déténue par le comte de Toulouse — accessoirement un vassal du roi de France).
Le comté de Provence faisait néanmoins partie du royaume de France : http://www.tu-dresden.de/sulcifra/frankreich/ma/comtes/provinzen.gif . Et je crois que le comte de Barcelone est resté vassal du roi de France assez longtemps. Je crois que c'est Saint Louis qui a renoncé en 1258 au comté de Barcelone (traité de paix avec l'Aragon).
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