Catalan and Spanish

It would be absolutely impossible for Spain to acknowledge the independence of Catalonia even in the case that the majority of Catalans would vote for it. Most catalans are aware of this. Therefore, Catalans are trying to live as comfortably as possible in the present state and trying to change things within the Spanish political framework towards a more federal state.

That, of course, isn't understood by those who would want a monolingual and monocultural Spain based on the traditional Castilian Spanish hegemony since the 16th and specially the 18th century. They can accept us speaking Catalan "at home" or dancing the "Sardana" but they hardly understand our right to be known as Catalans throughout the world. The fact is Catalonia has a huge prestige at many levels and all over the planet and Catalans will very often answer they are Catalans before they tell you they can also be Spanish. Ins't that what an Englishman says before he tells you he's British?

Regarding Franco being declared a saint by the pope I don't think that will ever happen -the most extreme rightist movements would probably agree and campaign for it-- although quite a few lesser Francoist men and women of religion have already been declared saints by the pope based on religious persecution or "holyness". Nevertheless, a lot would have to be said about how really saintly and Catholic many of them were to those who didn`t think like them.

Ok Jordi, tell us the truth. Do you think that most of the catalans wants Cataluña to be a nation? Wath is doing Boadella, do you think he is ok? Do you think it´s right to isolate spanish in the region of Cataluña? Are you agree with the ideas of the Tripartit? Don´t you think that the Estatut is the first stept to the independence of Cataluña? Do you really think that Cataluña and the catalans would be better in a independent Cataluña. Don´t you feel proud about your country partners; about the andaluces, the gallegos, the vascos, and so many others?
Cataluña and the other comunities forms the fisical and politic DEMOCRATIC MONARCHY of the nation of Spain, it is said by the constitution, voted by the majority of the spanish (included the catalans), so if Cataluña really wants the independence, it should be given by the whole Spain, not only by the catalans.

Ah, and explain me who the hell are those "independentistas castellanos" [:\} I´m from Palencia and i can tell you that, first; no one castellano want Spain to be exactly like Castilla y Leon (we don´t think we are the center of the universe), and second; Spain is known by outsiders most of the times like a big Andalucía not a big Castilla y Leon.

I know that this forum is not for this stuff but, please Jordy, explain me your poit of view about this things.

Asking if Saint Franco :0 had ever exist, no, never. The only thing is that Franco apear some times "bajo palio", a special treatment for Bishops and Popes. Remember that Franco was "Generalísimo por la gracia de Dios" so we can see that Franco had a special relationship whit the Catholic Church, yes.

Again, sorry for my bad english.

Pablo;
Is it so difficult to understand Catalans want to be Catalans and that we are nor better nor worse than anybody else. Castellanos don't need to be independentists. Why should they? They've imposed their language and culture to the rest of us.

Catalans are the biggest polyglots in Spain since not only are we bilingual in Castilian, although nobody ever asked us if we wanted that, we very often speak other languages.

And yes; Catalonia is a nation and 90 per cent of Catalans voted for the three major parties or tripartito.

As I said in my previous message you will never let us go even if 100 per cent of Catalans voted for independence. What you say proves my point. Nevertheless; we'll try to remain as Catalan as possible; with your permission of course. You even think it's ridiculous for us to speak Catalan in Brussels. You, of course, love us. And my name is Jordi not Jordy.

Why don't they teach you other Spanish cultures in Palencia? A good question and a bad answer. I'm sure.

Catalonia and Canary Islands will remain Spanish, Madeira and the Azors will remain Portuguese, Tahiti and Society Islands will remain French, American Samoa and Hawaii will remain American.


That*s it
Face it, accept it

No more wars!

Please Spaniards, try to give DEMOCRACY a chance... It is not a bad thing, believe me, it is just the right to decide. I know you find hard to realize this sometimes, but I guess you are able to change your mind listening to others, not only your shameful media system...

I think most of Spaniards have not accepted modern times, they think they can still put tanks in Barcelona anytime and being imperialist as it they have been during the last 3 centuries... But, unfortunately for them, those times passed.

However Madrid's mass media is still the most powerful in Spain and they are going to continue tellying lies to the population within Spain and abroad about how bad Catalans are, about some kind of persecution of Spanish language in Catalonia (still not proved although it will continue dammaging our image) and about hating Spaniards (to defend our Catalan identity is not against you or any one else, is a democratic right) ... It is so damn hard to explain things over and over again!!!

By the way this story is not new. The catalanofobia in Castille can be found historically since at least the 17th century telling the same lies and trying to destroy us with the power of their state behind.

It is very easy: please, be democratic.

I find Catalan language ugly, so please Catalans stick to Spanish.
So you can sing Jennifer Lopez songs hahahahaha

We, Catalans; are the most educated people so it doesn't tell us anything at all that Kelly finds our language ugly. We've heard that thousands of times from our Castilian language monolingual brothers and sisters who wish to redeem us from linguistic ugliness.

There are no ugly languages; only ugly remarks. So, we'll stick to our beautiful and cultivated Catalan language, while we learn other languages as best as we can.

Kelly has more than enough burden; poor soul, with her weird musical taste. Juanita Lopez. Good Christ...

You can; of course; forbid us our language. You've done it so many times in the past that it seems only natural to you.

Nevertheless; many Castilian speaking families who have moved to Catalonia now speak Catalan at home as happens in all normal linguistic areas.

As i can see JordI, its too hard to you that having such a "beautiful and cultivated Catalan language" nobody out Spain knows a song in catalan. It´s sad, you know, bacause Lluis Llach have composed pretty songs but, because catalan isnt a worldwide popular language its dificult to sell.
So i can understand the way you look down on Jennifer, because she uses the language that the opresive castallanos have imposed to you (i mean, to all the catalans) and it hurt you bad. :)

P.D: You haven´t answer my questions. Do you really want cataluña to be a single nation (if it could be like that)?

ESPARSA

Des que perdí a vós, déu de ma vida,
perquè vejau porte corona casta,
està el meu cos que extrema set lo gasta,
car jo sol bec aigua descolorida.
Ni em pose mai en rama verd florida,
mas vaig pel bosc passant vida ermitana,
e prest responc, si alguna em demana,
que sola vós de mi sereu servida.

[Joan Roís De Corella-XV century]

I don't know who sent the above message but it's a beautiful XVth c. poem in Catalan, from the Valencian poet, Joan Ruis de Corella.
By the way, the most beautiful songs and poems in the world, dear commercial Pablo, aren't the ones that sell the most. There are also some very fine Castilian poets who nobody knows apart from the "happy few". Most Castilians don't even know them! They are probably busy listening to Juanita López.

The importance of a culture and language lies in the people who speak it.
I have already told you Catalonia is a "nation". The political frame is another story and what I would like is clear as water.

Let's go back to the beautiful Catalan language poem somebody sen. I have done a quick translation:

Since I lost you, God of my life,
for you to see I wear a chaste crown
my body is worn from extreme thirst
since I only drink colourless water
neither do I stop in a green flowered branch
but I wander in the woods leading a hermit's life
and soon I answer, if a lady asks me
that only you will by me be served.

I'd rather give it the love sense it once had although it is also possible to be in love with one country's and language. That happens all over the world and it also happens to us, Catalans, no matter what France or Spain think how we should be.

There is no way that anyone can compare the following and deny that Catalan and Occitan are sister languages;

Catalan:

Tothom té tots els drets i llibertats proclamats en aquesta Declaració, sense cap distinció de raça, color, sexe, llengua, religió, opinió política o de qualsevol altra mena, origen nacional o social, fortuna, naixement o altra condició.

A més, no es farà cap distinció basada en l'estatut polític, jurídic o internacional del país o del territori al qual pertanyi una persona, tant si és independent com si està sota administració fiduciària, si no és autònom, o està sota qualsevol altra limitació de sobirania.

Occitan (Lengadocien):

Tota persona se pot prevaler de totes los dreches e de totas las libertats proclamada dins la presenta Declaracion sense cap de distincion de raça, de color, de sèxe, de lenga, de religion, de opinion politica o d'autra mena, d'origina nacionala o sociala, de fortuna, de naissença o de quina autra situacion que sia.

Se farà pas tanpauc cap de distincion fondada sus l'estatut politic, administratiu e internacional de país o territòri que la persona ne depend juridicament, qu'aquel país o territòri siá independent, jos tutèla, non autonòme o somés a quina limitacion de sobeiranetat que sia.

A cursory glance is sufficient to recognise their relatedness!

wonder where that occitan text came from but if anything it feels even closer to castilian than catalan feels ('dreches','opinion',','se pot','sia').

Todosmentira


Re: Catalan & Occitan "A cursory glance is sufficient to recognise their relatedness! "

This is true however I still have two caveats: 1) "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights" is not the best text to compare the two languages; texts which have more colloquial language in them would probably be better. 2) Both languages probably have almost just as many characteristics in common with Portuguese, Galician, Spanish, Italian, French and Rhaeto-Romantsch as they do with each other. Major differences in the Romance languages don't really begin to appear until you start getting into some of the more isolated ones like Dalmatian (extinct since 1898), Romanian and Sardinian.

<wonder where that occitan text came from but if anything it feels even closer to castilian than catalan feels ('dreches','opinion',','se pot','sia').>

The occitan text is from -

http://www.language-museum.com/l/languedocien.htm

There are also elements in each text that have been translated differently but contain cognates in each language:

Occ Cat

se pot es pot
dins dins
quina quina
tanpauc tanpoc
administratiu administratiu
sometre sotmetre

Also compare the days of the week:

Occ Cat

diluns dilluns
dimarç Dimarts
dimecres dimecres
dijòus Dijous
Divendres Divendres
dissabte dissabte
dimenge Diumenge

Si voleu fer comentari sobre aquestas llenguas us recomano qu'abans les conegueu una mica.

If you take a cursory look at the following texts taken from http://membres.lycos.fr/occitancatala/ you'd think that Catalan (first text) and Occitan (second text) were dialects of the same language. Of course, they are not, but they are more similar to each other than say French to Italian or Castilian to Portuguese.

Perquè el català i l'occità?
El català i l’occità són dues llengües neollatines bessones que divergeixen sobretot pels sons i les diftongacions. Entre catalans i occitans, hi ha diferències, mes també se troben una enorme quantitat de semblances com no es troben en cap altres pobles. L'afinitat cultural i lingüística de la nació catalana i occitana no té cap altre paral·lel semblant en el món.

Perqué l'occitan e lo catalan?
L'occitan e lo catalan son doas lengas neolatinas bessonas que divergísson subretot pels sons i las diftongacions. Entre occitans e catalans, i a diferéncias, mas tanben se tròban una enorme quantitat de semblanças coma non se tròban en pas cap altres pòbles. L'afinitat culturala e lingüistica de la nacions occitana e catalana non ten pas cap altre parallèl semblant al mond.