other in occitan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-fc4DOTwQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-fc4DOTwQ
Spanish is the most beautiful of all languages
fab, yes, I agree. I've read that Corsica and Sardinia were colonized by the Phoenicians, then the Etruscans, and later by the Celts and the Romans. Regarding Corsica, it seems that it was colonized by Pisans and Genoese long after the fall of Rome. That would explain why Tuscan and Ligurian dialects are spoken on the island. Pisa , Genoa, along with Amalfi and Venice were great seafaring powers in the Late Middle Ages and early modern times.
LAA,
« Wow! How strange. We don't have that at all in America. Could you try to describe what the different class accents? I know that was the case in old times, but I thought that was in the past. »
The so-called 'posh' accent, which I speak, is called Received Pronunciation, or RP. It is essentially a very refined form of speech based upon a dialect from Southeast England. Although it can be found all over the British Isles, it is commonly associated with middle and upper-middle class people (real upper class people speak what's sometimes known as 'upper RP'), especially in the Home Counties — the suburban and rural counties around London where lots of rather posh people live.
Here's an example of RP. He reads a short text and then recalls a rather amusing experience from when he was 16:
http://web.ku.edu/idea/europe/england/england7.mp3
There is then a gradual scale from RP to the broadest forms of the various regional dialects. So, let's say you're from Northumberland. You could speak general RP, or Northumbrian-influenced RP, or refined Northumbrian, or general Northumbrian, or even a very broad Northumbrian dialect which to American ears might not be much more intelligible than Frisian. So, you could see RP at the centre of a spider diagram, with all the many different regional dialects around the edge, showing a gradual progression from the broadest regional dialect through to upper RP.
Here's a more general accent from Darlington, in Northeast England:
http://web.ku.edu/idea/europe/england/england24.mp3
And here's one of my favourites — a woman with a rather broad accent from Norfolk, in East Anglia:
http://web.ku.edu/idea/europe/england/england11.mp3
That one might be quite difficult for you to understand, but there are many dialects which would be even less intelligible to someone who knows only Standard English — I'll see if I can find some.
« Wow! How strange. We don't have that at all in America. Could you try to describe what the different class accents? I know that was the case in old times, but I thought that was in the past. »
The so-called 'posh' accent, which I speak, is called Received Pronunciation, or RP. It is essentially a very refined form of speech based upon a dialect from Southeast England. Although it can be found all over the British Isles, it is commonly associated with middle and upper-middle class people (real upper class people speak what's sometimes known as 'upper RP'), especially in the Home Counties — the suburban and rural counties around London where lots of rather posh people live.
Here's an example of RP. He reads a short text and then recalls a rather amusing experience from when he was 16:
http://web.ku.edu/idea/europe/england/england7.mp3
There is then a gradual scale from RP to the broadest forms of the various regional dialects. So, let's say you're from Northumberland. You could speak general RP, or Northumbrian-influenced RP, or refined Northumbrian, or general Northumbrian, or even a very broad Northumbrian dialect which to American ears might not be much more intelligible than Frisian. So, you could see RP at the centre of a spider diagram, with all the many different regional dialects around the edge, showing a gradual progression from the broadest regional dialect through to upper RP.
Here's a more general accent from Darlington, in Northeast England:
http://web.ku.edu/idea/europe/england/england24.mp3
And here's one of my favourites — a woman with a rather broad accent from Norfolk, in East Anglia:
http://web.ku.edu/idea/europe/england/england11.mp3
That one might be quite difficult for you to understand, but there are many dialects which would be even less intelligible to someone who knows only Standard English — I'll see if I can find some.
Here are some good examples of broad Northumbrian dialects from Northeast England. I can just about follow them, but I wonder whether Americans can:
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/personalisation/object.cfm?uid=021MMC900S11129U00022C01
and:
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/personalisation/object.cfm?uid=021SED000C908S1U00004C01
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/personalisation/object.cfm?uid=021MMC900S11129U00022C01
and:
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/personalisation/object.cfm?uid=021SED000C908S1U00004C01
But why do you have different accents, when you recieve the same education? In America, assuming they are literate, a poor person would sound just like a wealthy person. We don't really have different accents. Take George Bush for instance. I was born into a lower-middle class household, and my English is superior to his, and he comes from an incredibly rich, American aristocratic family, and he was educated at Yale! So long as one is relatively educated, he will sound just like an upper-class person.
I have heard of the RP thing though. But, why do these drastic differences in accents between social classes still exist in Britain? The working class kids attended the same schools you did. Why would they sound any different? It's not as if they lack proper schooling.
I have heard of the RP thing though. But, why do these drastic differences in accents between social classes still exist in Britain? The working class kids attended the same schools you did. Why would they sound any different? It's not as if they lack proper schooling.
And what do you consider "middle-class" in England? Because the majority of people in the UK are middle class, at least in the American sense of the word. Does "working class" mean a destitute person? Someone in poverty?
That rather "broad accent" was almost unintelligible. We don't have such "dialects" in the U.S. Perhaps that's because we're a relatively new nation.
« But why do you have different accents, when you recieve the same education? »
Because we learn our accents at home. Also, it is not considered politically correct or even desirable anymore to try and 'teach' children to speak RP anymore. It's also worth mentioning that a lot of middle class children go to private schools or selective state schools, meaning that they don't quite receive the same education as such.
« And what do you consider "middle-class" in England? Because the majority of people in the UK are middle class, at least in the American sense of the word. Does "working class" mean a destitute person? Someone in poverty? »
No. Most people in England are working class and see themselves as such. They are proud to be working class and would be horrified if anyone thought they were anything else. They like speaking all their many different regional dialects
Okay, I'll try to explain why I am middle class: I speak RP; both my parents went to university, my dad went to Cambridge (essentially the British equivalent of Harvard) and is now a university lecturer; both my mum's parents went to university, her dad also to Cambridge, who then went to work in colonial administration in Uganda (where my mum was born) before returning to England and eventually becoming director of the SPCK bookshops (Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge). I have been brought up under the assumption that I will go to a good university. We read the traditionally 'broadsheet' newspapers, have liberal social attitudes, support the Liberal Democrat Party and would frown upon any overt expression of nationalism. And the fact that I'm a Unitarian could be seen as the icing on the cake (although it would be inaccurate to say that *all* Unitarians are necessarily middle class). Basically, all those things together mean that I am very much a 'middle class' person. That's not to say that one must have all those things to be middle class though.
Because we learn our accents at home. Also, it is not considered politically correct or even desirable anymore to try and 'teach' children to speak RP anymore. It's also worth mentioning that a lot of middle class children go to private schools or selective state schools, meaning that they don't quite receive the same education as such.
« And what do you consider "middle-class" in England? Because the majority of people in the UK are middle class, at least in the American sense of the word. Does "working class" mean a destitute person? Someone in poverty? »
No. Most people in England are working class and see themselves as such. They are proud to be working class and would be horrified if anyone thought they were anything else. They like speaking all their many different regional dialects
Okay, I'll try to explain why I am middle class: I speak RP; both my parents went to university, my dad went to Cambridge (essentially the British equivalent of Harvard) and is now a university lecturer; both my mum's parents went to university, her dad also to Cambridge, who then went to work in colonial administration in Uganda (where my mum was born) before returning to England and eventually becoming director of the SPCK bookshops (Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge). I have been brought up under the assumption that I will go to a good university. We read the traditionally 'broadsheet' newspapers, have liberal social attitudes, support the Liberal Democrat Party and would frown upon any overt expression of nationalism. And the fact that I'm a Unitarian could be seen as the icing on the cake (although it would be inaccurate to say that *all* Unitarians are necessarily middle class). Basically, all those things together mean that I am very much a 'middle class' person. That's not to say that one must have all those things to be middle class though.
I find that your various accents are not different much, separately
which "HT" is one can more marked...
which "HT" is one can more marked...
« I find that your various accents are not different much, separately
which "HT" is one can more marked... »
Est-ce que tu peux expliquer mieux ça en français ?
which "HT" is one can more marked... »
Est-ce que tu peux expliquer mieux ça en français ?
oui, si tu me comprend pas c'est peut etre parce que j'utilise un service de traduction direct lol, faut dire que l'anglais c'est pas mon truc...mais de toute façon je promets de m'y mettre j'apprend dejà le basque et je peut te dire que c'est pas une tache facile car qu'en t'apprends cette langue tu n'a pas de repaires gramaticaux voisins,(je vais profiter de cet instant pour vous faire part de mes connaissances du basque) si tu as un peu étudié les familles de langues tu s'auras que l'anglais, le français, le russe, et meme le perse font partis d'une même famille qui est l'indo-européen, hors le basque ne fait pas parti de cette grande famille, pour certain il serait un dernier décendant de ce que fut la langue des hommes préhistoriques il y a 20000 milles ans en europe et peut etre même du langage des hommes de néandertal, ce n'est qu'une hyposthese mais, elle est tangible (si tu veut te renseigner plusieurs outils de recherches t'en dironnt plus car tu seras étonné des découvertes que tu feras croit moi)
donc revenons à ta question de départ, ce que je voulais dire c'est qu'en écoutant les extrait des différents accents de l'anglais à travers les différentes régions je trouve que les accents extraits se ressemble beaucoup surtout lors de la forte prononciation du "th" anglais... serais-ce une caractéristique celtique?
donc revenons à ta question de départ, ce que je voulais dire c'est qu'en écoutant les extrait des différents accents de l'anglais à travers les différentes régions je trouve que les accents extraits se ressemble beaucoup surtout lors de la forte prononciation du "th" anglais... serais-ce une caractéristique celtique?
La raison pour laquelle tu crois que ces extraits-là se ressemblent beaucoup, c'est parce que tu ne parles pas assez d'anglais pour pouvoir reconnaître la différence. Moi je ne connais pas la différence entre la russe et l'ukrainien, mais bien sûr que ce ne soient pas homogènes.
LAA a déclaré qu'il ne peut pas comprendre les extraits de la Northumbrie, quoiqu'il parle maternellement l'anglais. C'est-à-dire que ce sont assez différents à l'échelle des langues anglo-frisonnes. Franchement, je ne crois pas que la northumbrien fasse vraiment partie duquel on appelle d'habitude l'« anglais ».
LAA a déclaré qu'il ne peut pas comprendre les extraits de la Northumbrie, quoiqu'il parle maternellement l'anglais. C'est-à-dire que ce sont assez différents à l'échelle des langues anglo-frisonnes. Franchement, je ne crois pas que la northumbrien fasse vraiment partie duquel on appelle d'habitude l'« anglais ».
c'est vrai que pour moi qui j'ai du mal a parler anglais (je remarque que tu fais moins de fautes que moi en français, bravo!) je ne peut pas vraiment disserner je pense votre northumbien de l'accent écossais, je pensais que l'anglais d'angleterre était homogène mais on en apprend tout les jours!
(ps: on ne s'éloigne pas un peut trop du sujet inicial?)
(ps: on ne s'éloigne pas un peut trop du sujet inicial?)
« je remarque que tu fais moins de fautes que moi en français, bravo! »
Merci beaucoup !
« je ne peut pas vraiment disserner je pense votre northumbien de l'accent écossais »
Il est vrai que le northumbrien est peut-être plus proche de l'anglais écossais ou même du scots (c'est une autre langue anglo-frisonne que l'on parle en Écosse) que l'anglais official de l'Angleterre.
On peut écrire le northumbrien, mais c'est rare. Voilà un exemple d'une paragraphe d'une histoire de Raymond Reed, qui s'appelle « A Day Oot Wi Mi Marras », trouvée à www.northumbriana.org.uk :
Wu’ll dandor an mooch ayont yon galloway, an tyek note o thi blee sky blent wi thi hills, see thi spuggies, an thi neuks bedighted wi eglantine. Fornenst thi cree an abeun thi hemmel, wu’ll hev wor bait, an batten worsels, time wu watch wor bollen bellies graa tiv i muckle, yarkin size. Then wu’ll tyek wor pipe an blin heor time thi reek gaans oot, an set wor dowps amaang thi pittleybeds an forgit aboot this bale world. An gyep it thi cuddies, an thi gobby, donnart craas wi thor feckless cries an thi lowpin yows an dunchin coneys i thi grass.
Merci beaucoup !
« je ne peut pas vraiment disserner je pense votre northumbien de l'accent écossais »
Il est vrai que le northumbrien est peut-être plus proche de l'anglais écossais ou même du scots (c'est une autre langue anglo-frisonne que l'on parle en Écosse) que l'anglais official de l'Angleterre.
On peut écrire le northumbrien, mais c'est rare. Voilà un exemple d'une paragraphe d'une histoire de Raymond Reed, qui s'appelle « A Day Oot Wi Mi Marras », trouvée à www.northumbriana.org.uk :
Wu’ll dandor an mooch ayont yon galloway, an tyek note o thi blee sky blent wi thi hills, see thi spuggies, an thi neuks bedighted wi eglantine. Fornenst thi cree an abeun thi hemmel, wu’ll hev wor bait, an batten worsels, time wu watch wor bollen bellies graa tiv i muckle, yarkin size. Then wu’ll tyek wor pipe an blin heor time thi reek gaans oot, an set wor dowps amaang thi pittleybeds an forgit aboot this bale world. An gyep it thi cuddies, an thi gobby, donnart craas wi thor feckless cries an thi lowpin yows an dunchin coneys i thi grass.
So, essentially, a middle-class person in the U.K, is the equivalent of an upper-class person in the U.S. You could use the term "bourgeoisie" in the old sense of the word. Here, what you call "working-class", would be "middle-class" for us, that is, the majority of the population. A person of average wealth here is called "middle-class". I would describe your parents as "liberal elitists", by the American definition of the word. Here, if someone has the resources to send their children to private school, pay for two luxury cars (Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes, etc), and live in a gated community, they are considered at least "upper-middle class". If the woman of the household volunteers her time for recreational or charitable purposes, she would be a stereotypical "rich woman", as seems to be the case with your "mum". Here, status is fluid. For instance, as I don't have a father, when my mother is laid off, or unemployed, we sometimes have to move into a not so nice neighborhood. I have to get a job to help support the both of us, etc. During those occasions, I would be considered poor. As of now, I am considered middle class. When I recieve my MBA, and I'm busily pursuing a lucrative career, I will be considered "upper-class", regardless of my station at birth. And my accent is no different than that of a Princeton or Yale graduate (our equivalent of Oxford or Cambridge). And I was always raised with the proper social graces, so that I am more "Gentleman-like" than most of the children of the 'well-off'. Class here, is not necessarily determined by birth. You make yourself what you are. Here, rich kids behave just like poor ones. They speak with a lot of slang, have the same accents, are just as rude and immature, etc. I can have half of their wealth at my disposal, and yet I still rise from my seat to greet someone, or when a woman leaves the room. I hold doors open for people, I walk on the traffic side of the street in the presence of women, I help old folks with their grocery bags, etc. So, you can't really tell the wealthy kids apart from the middle income kids, here at all. They even dress just as casually as most commoners. In fact, I dress better than a lot of rich kids. Evidently, our two "Anglo-Saxon" countries are completely different.