Slavonic Language Groups

Easterner   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 07:45 GMT
<<Personally I think this is a result of a feeling of guilt over the really bad peace settlements after the Balkan Wars and WWI in this area, and you can see the consequences of these at more than one place. >>

Of course this is a strictly personal view, I didn't intend to offend anybody's national sentiments, knowing that there are some Bulgarians participating in this forum (I haven't encountered anybody from Greece yet, but who knows). And of course I also know that if we look at it historically, this is a very complex issue.
Random Chappie   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 07:49 GMT
Perhaps the word "Macedonia" brings to the Greeks fearsome memories of a conquering Northern prince, later king, and still later emperor named Alexander the Great.
Nic   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 08:15 GMT

1st wolrd war in the balkans, the father of the father of my father has been there and fight against turkish, he has lost an eye, mustard gas + a destryed leg. It was a pleasant time, don't you think?
Easterner   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 10:16 GMT

I agree. Actually the Balkans has been much like that during the past century: wars with uneasy periods of peace. As Ambrose Bierce put it: "Peace: in international affairs, a period of cheating between two periods of fighting". Sad, but true.

Random Chappie,

I think Greece should be proud of Alexander the Great, because he did a lot to spread Hellenism to much of the Middle East and North Africa, although he was a Macedonian ruler (originally this was an ethnic group living north of the Greek states which was closely related to the Greeks). I think they are afraid that Macedonia will lay territorial claims to the parts of Greece (also called Macedonia from the name of the historic province) where there are some Slavic Macedonians whose existence is denied (I don't think this will ever happen, but you know politicians). I think this whole fuss about the name of Macedonia is ridiculous, but there must be an uneasy sentiment behind it. Anyway Goran could perhaps tell you more about this.
nic   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 10:49 GMT
Greece is a country with high culture, they founder Marseille in France and some other towns in France before the romans came
Damian   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 11:17 GMT
Alexander was Great. I feel a middle name is Alexander. I would really feel fond of Bucephalus as well.
Jordi   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 11:19 GMT
Are you sure ancient Greece and modern Greece are the same country? We are all heirs of ancient Greece, starting of course with the Greeks who speak a very evolved version of the language of Homer, but that doesn't mean we always have to agree with modern Greece, or modern France, or modern Spain...
Jordi   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 11:29 GMT
Did you know that Alexander the Great was 152 cm. tall. Since you told us you were that same height you'll realise height has got nothing to do with greatness.
nic   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 12:23 GMT

Well, if we speak in geographical terms, it’s not exactly the same area (mais il y a tout de même un noyau dure). Of course, greeks at this time are different from today and have been mixed with some other population, the same with Spanish, French…
If the ancient greeks did not fashioned their society like they did, could the actual greeks being like they are actually?

But if we consider an identity is the possibility to refer a country to its past, yes it’s the same country.

Spanish form the 12th century are not the same from the 20th century, but it’s historically the same country. Is Goya not a Spanish artist, yes it is.
Spain has been invaded by arabians, as of course you know better than myself, you can see some traces today in Spain, it comes from the past but you can see it in the actual Spain, so we are talking about the same Spain.
Look at Australia, before the british came, there was the aborigenas, they have let some traces which must be a part of Australian culture nowadays.

Example, my ancestors came from Portugal there’s a very very long time, they were name Yvanez, they came into France and had childrens who had childrens… they have “francisé” their name, do I feel more Portuguese or more French. I feel French, have been to school in France and learnt the history of France form prehistory to today. Of course, many things changed and the actual France is different from the one to the past, Savoie, Bretagne…can we say it’s Spanish history, of course no.

Look at the Egypt and their pyramids, these pyramids are a part of the actual Egyptians and their history.

The greeks I know are all talking about philosophers from the ancient Greece, they all consider it’s a part of their history, and I think it is.

You consider yourself as catalan at 1st (it seems to be the case), for that you need to refer yourself to the past, to your family history, don’t you? Your history has been made by some (not only) Catalans from different centuries.

Did i answer to your question?

You said : "We are all heirs of ancient Greece", does the heirs has something to see with descendance?
Mi5 Mick   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 12:59 GMT

I don't think the Egyptians can be worked into the big picture the same way as your other example of Spain. The people before the present day Egyptians were totally different; they were predominantly Copts who had their own religion, culture and ethnicity before the Arabians settled in Egypt with Islam.

As for Australia: it simply wasn't Australia 230 odd years ago.
nic   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 13:13 GMT

I just said it's a part of their history, heritage, culture, it was not a comparison. If pyramids never existed in Egypt, will you see their actual culture the same? No i don't think.

If indians from America never existed, will americans from US be the same, no i don't think.
nic   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 13:28 GMT
I know it was not Australia, but it still the same continent, actual Australia has been made by british and others ans aborigenas.

Names change, and there are some evolutions, but you must refer to a past to define yourself, if you cannot you do not have any determined place (les racines), these racines are defined by the people who were before you. These peole who lived in neolitic for example in France have designed the place where they lived differnently from the people they lived in Spain, Australia..., the same with the language, food etc.

So i am talking about the same country, i think there is diffenrent view between i and you. I consider the area, you think about unity.

Evolution is a long and a slow processus, i consider the people who leaved in France in the middle ages my own ancestors in the way there are things i use to do because of them, i thing like i think because of them, language etc... If you add that haritage to the Renaissance, Antiquity... yes it's the same country.
nic   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 13:40 GMT
Mi5 Mick,

Sorry o forgot to write your name on the other posts. I wanted to say, just think about the jewish. Why some of them from USA, France, Spain...leave the country for Israel. Was Israel the same in the past? Of course not, but the jewish who go to Israel actually consider it's the same country, because it's their heritage and their country. Could thy consider Israel their own country if it never was in Antiquity?
nic   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 13:42 GMT
Sorry for all the mystakes, i use my keyboard very fast.
Jordi   Thursday, August 12, 2004, 14:55 GMT
I know some people find this hard to understand but Spain didn't exist in the 12th century. We had different kingdoms with different names but none of those kingdoms was called Spain. Spain derives from Hispania, which is the name the Romans gave to all the Iberian peninsula, including the lands that now make up Portugal. Nobody would dare say that Portugal is a part of Spain now and I agree but they are as entitled as I am to Hispania. I trust that will help people understand the Macedonian issue, for example. Many people in southern Italy and in Sicily are direct descendants of Greeks and a form a Greek is still spoken in some villages. Are they Italians o are they Greek? Perhaps they are both.
I agree that all nationalities need their myths and to feel linked to a distant past. Look for a me a person from Perpinyà in Southern France (Perpignan) or from the Rosselló (Roussillon) o Cerdanya (Cerdagne) is definitely a Catalan like myself. All that area was a political part of Catalonia until 1659 and most of the people there are still Catalans and many of them speak Catalan and still feel they are Catalans. The most sacred Catalan mountain "el Canigó" (Canigou) is now in French soil. Were we or were we not stolen a part of our heart and history because both France and Spain reached an agreement. Some of those French citizens are even Catalan nationalists. Many others, of course, feel French only. For you they are as French as you are and for me they are as Catalan as I am. I know it's not a simple issue or question but there are people we both want to share "as our own" and we both have our reasons. It is a very good thing to be as international as we are in this forum but we all want to have our land, language and rights respected.
Sorry for the political agenda but there are many sides to the same issue.