Catalan language in danger?

"But why on Earth should I always speak in Castilian with you, just because you're from Asturias and you decide to move to a majority Catalan-speaking town and you decide that I have to speak a language "we share"? For the same reason we could both speak in English since both of us are fluent in that language."

Well, the difference is that English is not a co-official language in Catalonia, it´s Castilian the co-official language. This is what the law says (law as in the agreements reached between the local government in Catalonia and the government within the state).

Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña (1979)
Artículo 3.º (2)
"El idioma catalán es el oficial de Cataluña así como también lo es el castellano, oficial en todo el Estado español."
[Catalan is the official language in Catalonia jointly with Castilian wich is the official language within the whole Spanish state.] (No need to say that Catalonia is a part of the Spanish state... though not meaning to offend here Jordi)

Ley de Normalización Lingüística de Cataluña (7 enero 1998).
"El concepto de lengua oficial aplicado al catalán y al castellano garantiza a los ciudadanos y ciudadanas los DERECHOS subjetivos, que son proclamados explícitamente, a aprender las dos lenguas, a poder usarlas libremente en todas las actividades públicas y privadas, a ser atendidos en la que escojan en sus relaciones con las administraciones y, de forma gradual y progresiva, con todos los agentes sociales que ofrecen servicios al público, y a no ser discriminados por razón de lengua."

["The concept of official language applied to Catalan and Castilian guarantees to every citizen the right to learn both of the languages, to use them freely in every type of activity public or private, to be "answered" in the one that they choose for their relations with the public institutions and to not being discriminated with regard to language reasons."]
This is the law.. now everyone is free to break the law.

Anyway, my question was about respect. Why do some Catalans tend to put every Spaniard Castilian speaker into the same box. They say: "We are different and you´re all the same". Well, im Asturian and i consider my culture (which has a celtic background) as being different from others in Spain.I have two languages already, Castilian and Bable (though this one not considered as prestigious as Catalan, i know) To me Andalucia is somewhat exotic compared to my own culture. We´re also another cultural identity within the many identities existing in Spain and which in a determinate moment back in the past decided to join (more willingly or less) in order to create what Spain is nowadays. I can be Asturian and Spanish but i can´t understand why one can´t be Catalan and Spanish. It´s scary this ideology consisting of stressing everything which makes us different, which separate us, which makes us be foreigners!...It seems to me that behind that there can´t be any real claim for any cultural identity or anything but some sort of interests (specialy economical). We (those who consider ourselves as Spaniards) also feel somewhat offended sometimes by that "anti-Spanish" sentiment of some Catalonian nationalists, which although it might have been justified some decades ago, it has no real reason nowadays. Politics is undoubtedly related to this topic so far and to me, any sort of extreme nationalism (whether Spaniard or Catalan) is more related to the right wing than to the left (as the last relies more in "internationalism" and seeing everything from a global point of view while some extreme nationalisms are more related to the idea of the people or the race meant to excell above others). To me Spain (nowadays) is the sum of different identities not only Catalan and Basque and i believe that we can recognize that and be Spanish at the same time. When i see a Catalan i can´t help seeing a Spaniard.
By the way, i assure you that you can be as much Catalan as you want in Asturias. We wont be able to speak to you in Catalan, as we dont know it, but you dont need to learn Bable nor even imitate that half-bable accent thats so widely spread in our territory. We could even try to speak to you in English if you wish.

It is clear that most Asturians and most Catalans don't see their country the same way. I can repeat myself and yet I will not be read or understood. Catalan was the only official language until 1714 (18th century), Catalan has always been the vastly majority language in its territory, it has given a 1st class European literature throughout the centuries, more than 10.000 books are published in Catalan every year (not bad for 8 million speakers and the ratio is quite the same as bigger world languages). Although Castilian pressure has been very strong (extremely strong at some times and even violent), Catalan is still "a language of prestige" in Catalonia and the language you hear all around if you travel in its historic territory.

You don't really dare to do so, but then you carry on and imply Catalan and Bable speakers have the same feeling towards their language. In the case of Bable, quite unfortunately perhaps, Spanish linguist will not even acknowledge it's a different Romance language from the very start, although genetically extremely close to Castilian.

There is something when you say I will not be made to adopt a "half-bable accent that's so widely spread in our territory" that implies you are not as proud of it as you would want us to believe. I also Asturia and the Asturians and I can assure you our Covadonga (for the Catalans, at least) was at Poitiers, where the real Catalan reconquista began. We don't always share the same history but this is Europe, a vast continent with many local histories, including yours.

Spanish and Catalan laws change and the Catalan Parliament is debating a new Statute of Autonomy and the majority (except the minority Spanish right, of course) has already reached an agreement saying that both Catalan and Spanish will be "a duty" although "a right" to citizens. Than means all citizens will have to know both languages although they might choose to use one or the other. I will be perfectly happy if you carry on in Spanish and I carry on in Catalan, but why should I be less Spanish than you are just because I don't feel Castilian Spanish is my primary language. It simply isn't, that's a fact of everyday life for many of us.

Should you be in public office in Catalonia how would you guarantee my right to be met and answered in Catalan unless you are bilingual? That's what bilinguism is all about.

How many people speak Bable in Gijón (Xixón) or Oviedo ? I can assure you a majority can speak Catalan in Barcelona (a big city, even for European standards) and that Catalan is almost the only language you will hear in most of Catalonia's towns and in all the villages and countryside.

If you read my many posts (I won't quote myself) I've never said all Castillian-speaking Spaniards are the same but it happens too often and we must agree to the fact that Castillian is the "only" full language of Spain. I'm the one disturbed around Spain and it suffices to meet one or two a day to have your day spoilt.

I speak of other countries where there are several official languages but it would seem the Spanish Law is the Holy Bible that cannot be changed. During the Franco regime (I was extremely young) I was told I couldn't learn Catalan and that was the law! You would never read anything against that written by nice, even leftist or internationalist Castilian-language newspapers and citizens. They must have been somewhere. It has been up to us (Catalans, Galegos and Basque speakers and even the Bable language movement) to make sure things changed. Things will change even more and will become normal when the law changes but society must always be a step ahead.
Regarding Internationalism and Nationalism it would seem that those that accept "one only language" for the whole of Spain are more internationalist than those who don't accept "one only language" when the History of Spain proves precisely the opposite.

I might as well say and prove Catalans have the highest ratio of people who speak several languages in Spain. I told you more than 50% of Castilian Spanish interpreters in Brussels are Catalan speakers and this will save us a lot of money when Catalan becomes official since we can use the "same" interpreters. There's not way that willt make us "more international." even if others have the feeling Catalonia is amongst (and I say "amongst" to make sure I don't hurt anybody) places in Spain.

The mere fact we defend Catalan as the territorial language where it always has been spoken makes us "local" or "nationalist" when the word "nacionalista" has always been used by the Spanish right when it has interested them most.

There is such a thing as Spanish Nationalism, you know, and very strong indeed. Since all countries are Nationalist or Patriotic (please read the threads) does that imply Spain, France, Germany, South Africa, USA, Canada or the Netherlands are all "rightist extremists" since they are proud of who they are? Catalonia is a nation within Spain, is it so difficult to understand that?

Since I'm also a Spanish citizen let me tell you I'm not against Spain but I'm against the "status quo" that make 1st and 2nd class Spaniards and that would have us be "Spanish" a certain way with all the rest being be "local languages and folklore" ("peculiaridades regionales" is the coined phrase in Spain.). The mere fact you've put Bable and Catalan in the same bag shows there is very little you know about Catalonia, her language and her history since all Asturians have prefered Castilian Spanish to make themselves known to the world whilst Catalans have most of the time remained Catalan, all the way since our first texts back in the 12th century.

"since all Asturians have prefered Castilian Spanish to make themselves known to the world"
Yes sir! Please, forgive this poor Asturian. I bow to you sir!

I've been to Gijon and Asturias. It's a beautiful place. And the food is excellent.

(Sorry to be mundane and off-topic)

"Since all countries are Nationalist or Patriotic (please read the threads) does that imply Spain, France, Germany, South Africa, USA, Canada or the Netherlands are all "rightist extremists" since they are proud of who they are? Catalonia is a nation within Spain, is it so difficult to understand that?"

Germans are not entitled to be nationalistic or patriotic anymore. So please leave them out of the group of privileged europeans who have such a right.

Ana,
I apologise but I didn't mean anything wrong saying that Asturians have chosen Castilian Spanish as their literary language. If you've understood anything else it certainly wasn't what I said. The fact is Asturians have always felt comfortable in that sense and we haven't. I can assure you that doesn't make us better. We are not Catalans to piss off Castilian-speaking Spaniards. We are just Catalans, as clear as that, because that is what we have always been.
If you don't understand that there's not much more I can say. I don't expect you nor anybody to bow at me. We Catalans have bowed enough to know what it means.
I've also been to Xixón and it certainly is a beautiful place. Xixón has changed a lot in the past few years, and the city is vey pretty and one of my Asturian friends (who has learnt Catalan because he lives in Catalonia) makes a really nice "fabada asturiana" and brings special cider from his Asturian village.

"We are just Catalans, as clear as that, because that is what we have always been."
Yeah, i know that Jordi, it happens the same with me..wherever i go i can only be an Asturian. I dont know how to disguise myself as Catalan. Actually, I´d rather everybody recognize me as an Asturian with my own cultural identity within Spain, as that´s what i really am. I don´t like the idea of being forced to learn the language of other people when i already have mines. True that i can´t show our " 1st class European literature throughout the centuries" but this doesn´t make my language any less valuable than yours as it´s the language that my parents and the parents of my parents used to talk. No need to compare it with Catalan, it just makes the same function as yours and its part of our cultural identity as Asturians regardless what others may think about it. So this is what i am and i´m sorry too.

Ana,
I very well know the Bable Language movement also called "asturianu", which is the direct heir of the astur-leonese constituve dialects of Latin; the evolution of Latin in all that area. It is close to Castilian in many ways but also very archaic in many others.

There is an interesting movement to make Asturian an official language in Asturias and I know that a Standard based on the actual dialects has been formed. I have read a few things in Asturianu.
I encourage you and your people to dignify your language although very little has been written in Asturianu in the past (apart from some dialectal texts I have been able to find).

Catalan has been the language of an independent country (confederated in the Aragon crown first and with the Spanish Monarchy later) for 700 years. It was official during the II Spanish Republic and has been co-official in the new democratic Spain since 1978. The language of Catalonia is Catalan and many other languages are also spoken in Catalonia now. It is true many people from other Spanish regions came de Catalonia (especially in the recent past) but we now have people from all over the world. Catalan pretends to be a welcoming and relationship language to all the people who have chosen to live here. Castilian Spanish is a great world language and Catalans also learn to speak Castilian Spanish for political reasons (there is no other choice) but we want Catalan to be the language of future in Catalonia and not just the "language of the Reserve".

Let us leave it at that and I apologise if I have offended anybody. Unfortunately, too many people think it is "only natural" Catalans should speak Castilian. It is a language most Catalans learn artificially but that we have also learnt to respect. As long, of course, as it leaves Catalan the place it has always had as the national and natural language of Catalonia.

Ana, don´t waste your time with this nationalist. They are all the same.

Catalunians demand autonomy.
(Tut tut. Racist, nationalist Catalunians)

The Catalan Socialist Party (PSC) yesterday announced its new proposal for the Catalan Statute of Autonomy, the regional constitution. In the first section, the PSC's proposal defines Catalonia as "a nation which, in the exercise of its right of self-government, constitutes itself as an autonomous region in agreement with the (Spanish) constitution and the current Statute." The PSC's proposal also states, "Catalonia's true language is Catalan, and therefore it is the language of normal and preferable use of all Catalonia's public institutions." After saying, "Catalan is the official language of Catalonia, as Spanish is also in the whole Spanish state," the proposal declares, "Everyone has the right to use and the obligation to know the two official languages, Spanish and Catalan." A change in the current Statute would introduce an article regarding "symbols", including a definition of the Catalan flag (the traditional four red stripes on a yellow field), the anthem ("Els Segadors"), and the national holiday, "which is the Day of September 11" (the date of the fall of Barcelona to the Bourbons in 1714). The text recognizes Barcelona as the capital of Catalonia, states that municipalities "will enjoy political and administrative autonomy," and declares that "the citizens of Catalonia and its public institutions will recognize Aran's national reality based on its cultural, historical, geographical, and linguistic singular identity, defended by the Aranese over the centuries." The Aran valley, population 6000, has the highest per capita income of all counties in Catalonia. Its source of income is winter tourism, especially the Baqueira Beret ski resort. The Aranese speak their own language, related to Provençal, and have their own unique culture.

www.spainherald.com . . .

"Ana, don´t waste your time with this nationalist. They are all the same."

What have people on this forum got against nationalists? Does "independence" mean nothing to these people?

I bet Chloe is American, and if it wasn't for those those "racist nationalists" in the American colonies, the Americans will still be being ruled from Westminster and have Queen Elizabeth II as a Head of State.

If the British took action against nationalists worldwide, we would still have our Empire.

Pues no, por suerte para mi no soy Americano (aunque prefiero decir estadounidense)

Then no, lucky for me i am not american ( althoug i prefer to say "estadounidense"

Adam : are you feeling sick ?

'Nationalism' - as often examplified by your extravagance - is a sign of insecurity, neither serenity nor independance.

As for your dearest queenie Zazie, please give us a break !

Don't people have a right to feel insecure if another country rules their country? I mean, the Americans must have been feeling pretty insecure when they fought against Britain to get their independence.

I've noticed that it only seems to be Continental Europeans who don't seem to value national independence. People all over the world have been fighting for their independence and their right to sovereignty for years - whereas the Continentals seem to think that national independence is wrong. Maybe that's why so many of you don't seem to care that your national sovereignties are slowly being eroded away by Brussels.

If independence is so wrong, then lets all get our old borders back. Britain will take back the United States, Ireland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, South Africa, Malta, Cyprus, the other countries once in our Empire. We also need to get back the whole Western half of France, considering that was once under English rule.

My God, there are a lot of "insecure" people in the world. Most of them wanted independence from Britain!

"As for your dearest queenie Zazie, please give us a break !"

She'll soon be the Queen of Western France. After all, Western France should never have got its independence from the English, because nationalism is wrong!