The relationships between the neo-Latin languages

Guest   Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:48 am GMT
"Yes, I agree completely, a couple of Romanians speaking French in a chat room is irrefutable proof that French surpasses any other major world language and has now become the lingua Franca for the whole globe. "

Carlos, what I mean is English has already surpassed French as international language my point is French is "a world lingua franca" and English is the leading one because of the status of USA in world economy, and politics.

But on the other hand, French is the second most important international language. What we don't like here in this forum is what they post about French like "unimportant nowadays and has been displaced by this language" and some even conclude that it's already a "dead language". You see they didn't realized the lasting contribution of France and the Francophone world in human civilization.

They keep on posting without checking on facts and reliable data/information.
fabio   Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:20 am GMT
I think the point of the message 6 postings earlier about all of the speakers of the Romance languages in a room was not about language prestige, but about the level of intelligibilty, or lack thereof, between the speakers of each of those Romance languages. As guest pointed out, in the experiment each of them only speaks his own language perfectly and nothing else.

I agree with guest that the highest level of intelligibilty between any pair of speakers would without a doubt be between the Spaniard and Portuguese. The Italian would do quite well with the Spaniard and Portuguese, and he would also understand the Frenchman and Romanian (reasonably well) - certainly better than the Spaniard or Portuguese would.
fabio   Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:26 am GMT
I should also add that the Frenchman and Romanian would likely understand the Italian much better than the Italian would understand them.
Guest   Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:54 am GMT
"I agree with guest that the highest level of intelligibilty between any pair of speakers would without a doubt be between the Spaniard and Portuguese. The Italian would do quite well with the Spaniard and Portuguese, and he would also understand the Frenchman and Romanian (reasonably well) - certainly better than the Spaniard or Portuguese would.

I should also add that the Frenchman and Romanian would likely understand the Italian much better than the Italian would understand them."

Yes Fabio, it's because Italian can be readily understood by other Romance language speakers particularly by Hispanophones and Portuguese speakers.

That's why despite that geographic limitations of Italian, its speakers still have an advantage when they go to Latin America because of its similarities to Spanish and Portuguese.
Carlos   Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:16 pm GMT
Whoever says that French is unimportant in the world today is an utter fool. OK, in the context of people wanting to belittle its importance I understand your "defensive" attitude. Don't make me go on about the importance of Spanish though, he, he, he...

OK, everything in order now... Let's go back to the issue being discussed: mutual intelligibility. Yes, I agree, Spanish and Portuguese the closest, then these two and Italian. Sorry about my ignorance about Romanian... For what I have heard, there is some intelligibility between Romanians and Italians. As for French, I think it's easier for them to understand the rest of Romance languages than the other way round, though once you identify a few sound patterns and a few constructions, the common vocabulary helps a lot, at least from the perspective of a Spanish speaker.

Ciao.
Miguel   Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:08 pm GMT
Carlos you said, "OK, everything in order now... Let's go back to the issue being discussed: mutual intelligibility. Yes, I agree, Spanish and Portuguese the closest, then these two and Italian. Sorry about my ignorance about Romanian... For what I have heard, there is some intelligibility between Romanians and Italians. As for French, I think it's easier for them to understand the rest of Romance languages than the other way round, though once you identify a few sound patterns and a few constructions, the common vocabulary helps a lot, at least from the perspective of a Spanish speaker." I agree completely Carlos.

And just to make sure this is clear, let me just say that no one in this forum (at least since I've joined in) is discounting the importance and prestige of French.

I'll just add one thing though...if Spanish and Portuguese Latin America ever get their politics in order (hopefully soon), they are going to be a force to be reckoned with globally. The Chinese and India are already doing a lot of trade with them (Brazil - aerospace) and with Argentiana, Venezuela...with Portuguese Africa too. Angola (a former Portuguese colony whose national language is Portuguese), is getting ready to explode economically, its economy being bolstered by its vast richness in natural resources e.g. gold, diamonds, coffee, oil, etc., and by serious trade with China, India and Southeast Asia. The Mercosur agreement between Portuguese speaking Brazil, and many of the Spanish speaking Latin American countries, e.g., Argentian, Paraguay, Uruguay, solidifies the relationship through the fact that even before this agreement they were already able to communicate with one another effortlessly in their own respective languages.
OldAvatar   Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:12 am GMT
Romania is considered a francophone country just for political, historical and cultural purposes. In fact, the number of English speakers in Romania is 3 times bigger than the ones who are able to communicate in French. And most educated Romanians understand Italian without theneed of learning it. A situation not available for French, for example.
Francophilippe   Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:05 am GMT
Old Avatar: "Romania is considered a francophone country just for political, historical and cultural purposes. In fact, the number of English speakers in Romania is 3 times bigger than the ones who are able to communicate in French. And most educated Romanians understand Italian without theneed of learning it. A situation not available for French, for example."

Really? Just where did you get this data? Maybe those Romanian English speaker that you are reffering have just a smattering of English like simple greetings. But in actual conversation they back-off. Just listen to them how they speak French and English, compare, and see the big difference and you will dtermine in which language they are far more articulate.
guest   Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:37 am GMT
Francophilippe makes a good point.
OldAvatar   Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:02 pm GMT
"Potrivit studiului realizat de Prefectura Capitalei, 35,34% din numarul total de angajati ai institutiilor administrative si ONG-urilor vorbesc o limba de circulatie internationala. Cea mai cunoscuta este engleza. 64% dintre vorbitorii de limbi straine vorbesc engleza, urmata, in ordine de franceza (38%), germana (4%), italiana (4%), maghiara (4%), spaniola (3%), si rusa (3%)."

This is a quota of an official statistic, regarding the administrative employees (from Bucharest City Hall) able to speak a foreign language in Romania. I try to offer a proper translation.

According to the study done by Bucharest City Hall, 35,34% of the administrative employees are able to speak a foreign language. The most known foreign language is English, 64% of the employees being able to speak English. English is followed by French - 38%, German (4%), Italian (4%), Hungarian (4%), Russian (3%).

I can find other examples if that would be necessary.

Best regards
OldAvatar   Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:06 pm GMT
According to EUROSTAT data, 26% of Romanians do speak English as their second language, comparing with only 17% (decreasing fast) who prefer French.
nico   Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:49 pm GMT
it is a fact every romanian and french know, romanians learn french early, and french is more spoken in Romania than english. This is of course for political reason.
Ikasi   Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:35 pm GMT
The Rumanian has many similar words with French (22,12 % of the Rumanian vocabulary, French words taken in the XIX century and only 0,07 % of English words),


<< "Potrivit studiului realizat de Prefectura Capitalei, 35,34% din numarul total de angajati ai institutiilor administrative si ONG-urilor vorbesc o limba de circulatie internationala. Cea mai cunoscuta este engleza. 64% dintre vorbitorii de limbi straine vorbesc engleza, urmata, in ordine de franceza (38%), germana (4%), italiana (4%), maghiara (4%), spaniola (3%), si rusa (3%)."

This is a quota of an official statistic, regarding the administrative employees (from Bucharest City Hall) able to speak a foreign language in Romania. I try to offer a proper translation.

According to the study done by Bucharest City Hall, 35,34% of the administrative employees are able to speak a foreign language. The most known foreign language is English, 64% of the employees being able to speak English. English is followed by French - 38%, German (4%), Italian (4%), Hungarian (4%), Russian (3%).

I can find other examples if that would be necessary.

Best regards >>

Ok, but on the whole the English speakers in Romania exceeds the French speakers from only 5% (29% of English speakers , of 24% French speakers …)
Alvarado   Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:54 pm GMT
The top ten languages of the world are as follows (in order of first-speaking population):

Chinese Mandarin 13.69%
Spanish 5.05%
English 4.84%
Hindi 2.82%
Portuguese 2.77%
Bengali 2.68%
Russian 2.27%
Japanese 1.99%
German 1.49%
Chinese Wu 1.21%

One thing is for sure...of all these languages, English, Mandarin, Spanish, and Portuguese are growing in leaps and bounds in terms of 1st language speakers. All of the other major world languages, although not gowing as rapidly as the above mentioned 4, are certainly not in decline either. As long as there are people being born everyday in Russia, Germany and France, and wherever those languages are spoken, then those languages too are growing, just not as fast as English, Mandarin, Spanish and Portuguese are. So what...languages have evolved this way since time immemorial. A lingua franca today, does not guarantee that it will be the lingua franca of tomorrow. Let's not forget that Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean basin at one time.

When it comes to langauges, words like prestige and utility are very subjective. Lingua francas do not always replace local existing languages, because if they did, then Latin would have remained the medium of communciation for most of Europe to this day, which it has not. Although Latin still lives on because it morphed into the present day Romance languages. In fact, most European tongues have words of Latin origin, including English.

English will not hold out forever as the lingua franca of the world, because things are always in a state of flux - nothing stays the same as things are always changing. History has taught us that... empires have risen and fallen i.e., ancient Greece, Rome, Nazi's, Soviet Union. The United States will fall too - it's just a matter of time.
Francophilippe   Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:07 am GMT
Potrivit studiului realizat de Prefectura Capitalei, 35,34% din numarul total de angajati ai institutiilor administrative si ONG-urilor vorbesc o limba de circulatie internationala. Cea mai cunoscuta este engleza. 64% dintre vorbitorii de limbi straine vorbesc engleza, urmata, in ordine de franceza (38%), germana (4%), italiana (4%), maghiara (4%), spaniola (3%), si rusa (3%)."

This is a quota of an official statistic, regarding the administrative employees (from Bucharest City Hall) able to speak a foreign language in Romania. I try to offer a proper translation.

According to the study done by Bucharest City Hall, 35,34% of the administrative employees are able to speak a foreign language. The most known foreign language is English, 64% of the employees being able to speak English. English is followed by French - 38%, German (4%), Italian (4%), Hungarian (4%), Russian (3%).

I can find other examples if that would be necessary."

Hey OldAvatar, it seems that this data text is not written by a Rumanian because it uses the English variant of the Latin alphabet not the Rumanian variant. Can you show me the website of this.

Besides it is stated in what you posted "According to the study done by Bucharest City Hall, 35,34% of the administrative employees are able to speak a foreign language. The most known foreign language is English, 64% of the employees being able to speak English. English is followed by French - 38%, German (4%), Italian (4%), Hungarian (4%), Russian (3%). ". That's it there are more administrative employees who are able to speak English than French. But outside the administrative unit this is not the case. And besides, French and Rumanian are sister languages. Their languages are more closely related to each other than to English so it is far more easier for a Rumanian to get fluent in French. In addition Rumanians admire the French culture and language.

If you have only seen the footage of the Ceausescu's downfall. The people being interviewed there spoke French very well not English.