Is "Brit" an insulting term?
Terry wrote: "In Boston there are a lot of families of Irish ancestry and there's still to this day a lot of talk about the English and it's not good."
JJM wrote: ""True enough. Many Irish Americans are still stuck with their great-great grandfather's view of Britain."
Not entirely irrational. The sore point has been Ulster which the British government has refused to abandon up till now. Ulster is afterall, geographically part of Ireland and in some ways it is even more Irish than southern Ireland. Yet, as author Tim Pat Coogan pointed out, the British fear that if they leave Ulster it won't be long before Scotland wants independence, then Wales, and then maybe even Cornwall.
Here in the United States, the Irish are becoming rapidly assimilated and are now one of the wealthiest ethnic groups in the country. Saint Patrick's day parades and celebrations draw fewer and fewer people every year.
Italian Americans have also come up in the world a lot from a century ago when almost all of them did manual and menial labor. Many Irish and Italian Americans now vote Republican in political elections, something that was still inconceivable when I was a kid in the in the 1950's . This assimilation will almost certainly soften some of the attitudes towards the English that poorer generations of Irish had in the past.
One more note regarding the War of 1812 - It's been said that it was a war that the Americans lost but negotiated as though they won it, and that, of course, took guts!
Previous post by Brennus not Guest. There seems to have been a system error here.
<<I was actually referring to people born and bred in Ireland, not Americans who call themselves Irish and are probably no more Irish than I am. Most Southern Irish people I know, don't care any more than I do about what what happens in N Ireland.>>
Bear with me on this, Guest, as it does lead somewhere.
People of European descent in the US don't tend to call themselves say, Italian-American or Irish-American, as Africans and Native-Americans do. They just call themselves Irish or Italian, even though their families have been here for generations.
One thing I've noticed, and I may be all wet on this, is that people of European ancestry in the states tend to Identify with their immigrant ancestors and keep "the old ways" alive. I think the Irish and Italian and some other Europeans today have moved on from the old ways and are nothing like the immigrant families in America who cling to the old ways.
<<Here in the United States, the Irish are becoming rapidly assimilated and are now one of the wealthiest ethnic groups in the country.
Italian Americans have also come up in the world a lot from a century ago when almost all of them did manual and menial labor. Many Irish and Italian Americans now vote Republican in political elections, something that was still inconceivable when I was a kid in the in the 1950's.>>
Not all the Irish who came to the US were poor, Guest. But you're probably right, once they gained wealth and power they voted to keep it.
Also, it's been my observation that many immigrants, who remained poor or didn't do all that well, need someone to kick and so they find other new immigrants to kick, sort of like people who kick their dogs. Certain politicians play on this too-human need to find someone or some other group to make them feel superior and relieve their sense of inferiority caused by yet other groups, who hurt them in the past.
<<This assimilation will almost certainly soften some of the attitudes towards the English that poorer generations of Irish had in the past.>>
I doubt it. The people I know who vote neo-con, which has become synonymous with Republican, no matter the nationality, hate all Europeans. It's like they're Euro-phobic or something.
Look, folks,
I'm from a fairly wealthy Anglo, old money family.
Both the Irish, and the Italian, not to mention the Armenian, and countless other immigrant folks who've come here have done spectacularly well financially.
They've certainly eclipsed me. I'm just a photographer who has inherited some money.
These people have proved -- once again -- that ANYONE can come here and get rich by making OTHER PEOPLE better off.
The Left simply does not understand this concept, but millions of poor people who DO get a chance to USE this concept DO understand it. Because it works every time it is tried.
<<Uriel, what the hell does the date have to do with it. There was a battle, and they lost. >>
Yes, we did good at the Battle of New Orleans. The song is cute, too. But I was talking about the ENTIRETY of the War of 1812.
(from historycentral.com)
"The War of 1812 is one of the forgotten wars of the United States. The war lasted for over two years, and while it ended much like it started; IN STALEMATE; it was in fact a war that once and for all confirmed American Independence. The offensive actions of the United States failed in every attempt to capture Canada. On the other hand, the British army was successfully stopped when it attempted to capture Baltimore and New Orleans. There were a number of American naval victories in which American vessels proved themselves superior to similarly sized British vessels."
That doesn't exactly meet MY definition of an "asswhipping". More like ya win some, ya lose some, then ya call the whole thing off.
Bill the Yank wrote: "Both the Irish, and the Italian, not to mention the Armenian, and countless other immigrant folks who've come here have done spectacularly well financially."
Exactly my point, Bill, thanks. Incidentally the two richest men in Canada the last I heard were two Armenian brothers who had made a fortune in bulding shopping malls there.
Terry wrote: " The people I know who vote neo-con, which has become synonymous with Republican, no matter the nationality, hate all Europeans. It's like they're Euro-phobic or something."
Terry, they merely don't like European Socialism or Britsh Fabian Socialism. Canada scares them to death for much the same reasons. However I remember that the Reagan and George Bush Père administrations here in the U.S. were very chummy with England while Margaret Thatcher and John Major were prime ministers there.
American right-wingers also liked the aristocratic Valéry Giscard D'Estaing when he was president of France. The current round of French-bashing by them began only after Socialist François Mitterand toppled D'Estaing in the 1981 presidential elections in France.
***Not entirely irrational. The sore point has been Ulster which the British government has refused to abandon up till now. Ulster is afterall, geographically part of Ireland and in some ways it is even more Irish than southern Ireland. Yet, as author Tim Pat Coogan pointed out, the British fear that if they leave Ulster it won't be long before Scotland wants independence, then Wales, and then maybe even Cornwall***
I don't believe that is strictly true. What IS true is the fact that the vast majority of Brits (those with no Ulster connections, that is) would either love and welcome the idea of the Province of Northern Ireland being amalgamated with the Irish Republic of the South or, more likely, i wouldn't give a toss one way or the other. This union of Province and Republic has been proposed countless numbers of times over the decades but the big stumbling block is the refusal of the Protestant Ulster majority to countenance such a unification. Local democracy ensued and the result has been obvious with a minority causing problems for the majority, as is usual in these situations.
A united island of Ireland would be great in my opinion, and many people this side of the irish Sea would feel likewise. But try and convince that aforementioned majority in Northern Ireland of this and see what reaction you get. As far asBritish people are concerned the idea of some sort of religious divide with Catholics on one side and Protestants on the other, with clearly divided demarcation lines such as they have there across the St George's Channel, is both ludicrous and a totally alien concept.
The Irish influence in this respect has caused similar, but less extreme, situations to arise in some of the big cities of both Scotland and England to where the Irish migrated in large numbers during the hard times of famine and deprivation in the 19th century. Glasgow and Liverpool are the prime examples. Liverpool is still full of what they call the "Liverpool Irish", and this had a very strong influence on the development of the Scouse accent we know today. In Glasgow this continuance of a division along religious lines showed itself in the formation of two great rival football teams.....one strictly Catholic (Celtic) and the other Protestant (Rangers).
As for the clamour for "independence" by us Scots, or our Welsh cousins, following any Irish Reunification is a wee bit nonsensical. The situations are vastly different in my opinion.
There really is no need for the Northern Irish to fear a union with Republican Ireland, apart from any sentimental attachment to Britain and the severance from Queen and Kingdom. Ireland is now a very prosperous country thanks to its membership of the EU, out of which it has done remarkably well financially as it has been very much a recipient of European munificence. In a way, Bitain has contributed to Ireland's present comparative wealth.
***Roosevelt finally had to recall him as Ambassador to Great Britain in 1940 over his ill-advised remarks, among other things***
Wow...I took some few minutes to check out what that American Ambassador had done or said back in 1940. His name was Joseph Kennedy and he was the father of the future US President John F Kennedy (of pure Irish descent). In a nutshell what the guy said was: "The English (meaning the British in Americanspeak) are finished! They will be invaded by the Germans and conquered. They do not stand a chance of protecting their country or their Empire!" (It was still an Empire in those days.
Obviously his period of time spent among the English people (meaning the British people of course!) had taught him a total of zilch about the British nature or character or determination or resolve in the face of adversity. Hitler and Napolean were equally ignorant of this.
It teaches on important lesson for all diplomats...to know what the word diplomacy means and to learn at least something about the character of the peoples inhabiting the host country to which they purport to act as Ambassador.
I like the word Britisher!
But Britisher has WWII overtones as used by the Germans.
Being Welsh and living in England, we never hear other cultures call us Britishers. Personally I would find it very odd if they did.
"Brit" is absolutely fine. The nineties saw the rise of "Brit Pop" as the British press called it. It's not derogatory in the least.
However, assume England to be synonymous with Britain, or English to be synonymous with British - now that is likely to cause uproar with the Celts. Many English people assume that the Union flag is their flag, it's not - the George cross is the English flag. England is just one part of Britain, and the English are actually the biggest culprits of this flawed thinking.
Call us Brits by all means...that's super duper by us lads'n'lassies...but leave out the Britisher bit, ja?....it has a sort of harsh Teutonic ring to it. It brings to mind a Kommandant in a prison complex in WW2 barking out to some newly installed innocuous British inmate: "Gott in Himmel! Ve haf ein Britisher prisoner in our midst!"
I knew I shouldn't have watched a replay of The Great Escape on More4 TV the other night....isn't Steve McQueen something! Or wasn't he....he's dead, is he no?
<<he's dead, is he no? >>
In 1980, I think.
<<I was actually referring to people born and bred in Ireland, not Americans who call themselves Irish and are probably no more Irish than I am. Most Southern Irish people I know, don't care any more than I do about what what happens in N Ireland. >>
I believe it , Guest. Southern people generally have a strong southern identity and don't seem to think too much about their ethnic backgrounds unless their families settled early on.